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#1 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:01 AM

Pickup Guides

Photos, drawings and information.

 

Organized by first known date of availability and then by manufacturer and part number.

 

Updated list - not by any means an all-inclusive listing, but getting closer...

 

This has been a collaborative effort; many thanks to everyone who graciously provided additional information and photos! 



 

Pickup Guides 1962 a 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1963 a 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1963 b 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1964 a 24 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1964 b 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1964 c 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1965 a 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1965 b 26 May 2014.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1965 c 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1965 d 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1965 e 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1966 a 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1966 b 26 May 2014.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1966 c 26 May 2014.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1966 d 26 May 2014.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1966 e 26 May 2014.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1967 a 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1968 a 18 Dec 2013.jpg

 

Pickup Guides 1970 a 18 Dec 2013.jpg


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#2 TSR

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:42 AM

Philippe,

 

Regarding that Pactra/Competition guide; can you confirm it is a product made by this company:

 

post-11-0-06336500-1370574464.jpg

 

and then used by Pactra to complete their cars?

 

OR

 

Was it a Pactra part with a Pactra part number?

 

Since you mentioned it is used in the "Competition: Titan II RTR" I'm thinking it was a Competition Models and Hobbies part.

 

 

 

Steve,

The story of the two companies is a mix. Here is a little excerpt for the new book:

 

 

In the last months of 1965, Competition Models & Hobbies based in Santa Ana, California actually located right around the corner from the Cox Center, had been planning to produce a new RTR 1/24 scale Ford GT model using an ingenious brass-rod and tubing frame, liquid-soldered by an elaborate oven system from preformed parts fitted into jigs. These frames were equipped with the latest 1965 Mabuchi FT16D motor and used Pactra-Stormer vacuum-formed bodies. The box also contained a pre-painted spare body of a Ferrari 365P. This first offering was obviously inspired by the contents and packaging of the successful Classic  Manta Ray.

 

The company's first product was this Ford GT RTR model, sold with an extra Ferrari 330P2 body and a bottle of lubricating oil.

 

The large order of Ford and Ferrari bodies must have attracted the attention of the Pactra executives because they quickly acquired the company from owner and President Nat Clipper after a visit to their new customer. Pactra devised two classes of kits and RTR models: the Pactra kits were deluxe versions using evolved drop-arm frames from the basic Competition design, also soldered in the automatic machine. To the delight of their customers, the Hemi X88 motor supplied by Igarashi of Japan was used in the Pactra kits and RTR versions, while the less costly Mabuchi FT16D motor was retained for the simpler and less expensive Competition models. Premium wheels probably produced for Pactra by Riggen equipped the Pactra models, shod with proprietary molded skinned-sponge rear tires. The Competition kits and factory built RTR models had different slotted wheels of unknown origin and molded foam-rubber rear tires but used the same front tires as the Pactra models, obtained from the Gardena Rubber Company (GRC). While the Pactra kit bodies had elaborate paint schemes with hand painted details, the Competition bodies had a simple one-color paint scheme and no extra detailing. Sales of the "lesser" kits must not have gone well because the Competition kits are scarce today compared to those of Pactra. The company ceased all activities by the end of 1968.

 


And...

 

The last series of Pactra models issued in RTR form only had a new “iso-fulcrum” type chassis where the whole drop-arm and Hemi X88 motor assembly were pivoted from the rear axle. A new low-profile guide was used on these models of which relatively few were produced. This design was also shared with some Competition models produced at the very end of both companies, with a mix of parts that certainly does not make things easy for correct identification by enthusiasts, with Competition inner trays inside the orange Pactra boxes…

Advertised and known to exist are the Pactra BRP-Ford Indy, Lotus 40 and Ford MK4, all using a Lancer sourced body painted in metallic red, all RTR models offered in the usual “triangular” window box. Pactra also had a kit and RTR model of the “Titan II Bat”, packed on the Competition kit tray inside the orange Pactra outer box that used the same iso-fulcrum chassis but the Mabuchi FT16D in dark silver replacing the more expensive Hemi. This author also knows of a Competition version of the BRP-Ford, using yet another “iso” design, that mixes the aluminum drop arm bolted to the Mabuchi motor to the older style motor bracket and an outer chassis part similar to that of Pactra’s Lola T80 RTR model’s.

One can truly get lost in trying to figure out all the versions, all issued in such a short time span!

 

There are at least TWELVE different versions of the Pactra/Competition chassis I have so far identified...  :)


Philippe de Lespinay


#3 TSR

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:00 PM

And to add to the above, here are pics of the Competition iso chassis, one on this very rare BRP:

 

brp_4.JPG

 

...the other on this equally scarce Titan II Bat RTR (the kit retaining the standard Competition chassis without drop arm, that never changed):

 

P1110829.JPG

 

Now check the chassis on this Pactra RTR from the same period:

 

40010_4.jpg

 

Can you pick the differences? OK, a clue: check motor and front axle arrangements...

 

Now, the chassis in the Competiton kits are ALWAYS the same, even the ones with the Pactra outer box:

 

cm114_1.jpg

 

See, no drop arm on those. Please note that the guide on those scarce RTR cars is the "new" type, while the guide in the kit is the standard Pactra guide, originally a Modelrama item.


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#4 TSR

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:01 PM

Steve,

We have a few on the card at the LASCM, I put this on my new list for next time I get there. The Pactra guide is molded in white-ish plastic.
 

Modelrama made this guide before K&B bought the company. It was then packed in a plastic baggie with a white tag. Once K&B had purchased Modelrama, all the parts were packed on the black and yellow cards.

 

You will also be interested in knowing that the hard-to-find white BZ guide was also first marketed by Modelrama and also molded in yellow plastic...

 


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#5 TSR

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:58 AM

Steve,

the "Gold Cup" guide shown in the 1967 listing is a copy of the Cox quick-change, but I believe that it was actually produced, along with gears made of the same material, in the 1990s in Australia. Do you have more precise info on this?

 

Ken, the SimCo "Jet Flag" was issued in 1969.


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#6 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:32 AM

Philippe,

 

Other than what you see in the chart, I have virtually no other useful information about the Gold Cup guide.  The few I have were purchased off ebay and it is clear the seller didn't know anything either.

 

The undersize (compared to the common 3/16" we are used to) post is a mystery.  At .177" it is fairly close to 4.5mm but does not correspond well to any inch sizes (11/64" = ~.172).  Don't mean to be argumentative, but don't Australians, being ex-British, use the Imperial system?  If they do, why would they make guides with metric sized posts?

 

Rick Thigpen built at least one car using these guides, but he sleeved the post to bring it up to standard (3/16") size.

 

I dated the Gold Cup guide to 1967 as a guess, because I presumed as a copy it would have not come before, but rather would be produced just after the Cox guide became so popular.  But it's just a guess.

 

Steve


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#7 TSR

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:36 AM

I believe that the ones sold here came from Australia, but they could have been made in Japan in the 1990s when the Japanese had seen a resurgence in the hobby in the 1/24 scale, that is until the 1/32 scale Spanish cars made in China totally ruined that renaissance.

Maybe one of our Aussie friends will tell us what this is all about, but I do not believe them to be old.
 

The non-metric, non-Imperial post diameter is a bit of a mystery. And they are of course a pain to use because of that...


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#8 Jairus

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:37 AM

Shrinkage?  I know that modern plastics do tend to shrink upon cooling. I've found most 3/16" posts can vary as much as .006 (+/-).


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#9 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:47 AM

Jairus,

 

You are absolutely correct; shrinkage is a fact, and at different rates for different kinds of plastic.  So the better made molds take this into account by being slightly over-size.

 

Now, nobody is saying the Gold Cup guide molds are "better made", so I suppose it's possible; you might well be right.  However, the difference is about .010" so personally I'm a bit dubious about the shrinkage theory.

 

Whatever the truth is, the posts are .177" and we as builders need to deal with that.

 

Now, if I could just figure out where on the chart the Gold Cup guide really belongs...  (1990s?  I don't have any stinking 1990s!)  :laugh2:

 

Steve


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#10 TSR

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:30 PM

Australian and Japanese companies produced vintage-style chassis and parts in the 1990s when the hobby had a resurgence. I believe (but have no proof) that those guides as well as spur and crown gears with brass hubs made by the same outfit came on the market at that time. I know that I was offered to buy them in bulk, and you hardly get such offers for genuine vintage parts...


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#11 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:47 PM

The chart has been updated with all the new information.

 

Thanks to everybody!


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#12 Peter Davison

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

Some clarification of the Gold Cup product.

Gold Cup slot car accessories were based in Christchurch, New Zealand. i have a price list that I will have scanned & will upload for all to see.

The part number for the guide is 51. The gears were 27, 29, 31 & 33 teeth, part numbers 43, 44, 45 & 46

They produced chassis, axles, wheel, tires in both 1/32 & 1/24 scales

 

Best regards to all

Peter



#13 TSR

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 07:10 PM

Peter,

Thanks for that. The question is, when did they produce these parts?  :)


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#14 Peter Davison

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 07:32 PM

Philippe,

The price list is from the 60s, after 10 July 1967 when New Zealand moved to decimal currency

I was active as a teenager until about 1969 & only returned to slot cars in 2003 or so.

Main interest is the paperwork & history, will list othe NZ manufacturers onother time.

I was in Auckland & cannot recall these parts being available at our raceways. I think the parts were still being sold into late 70s early 80s but very hard to verify.

Maybe some other NZ member will be able to clarify :dash2:



#15 S.O. Watt

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 07:36 PM

The undersize (compared to the common 3/16" we are used to) post is a mystery.  At .177" it is fairly close to 4.5mm but does not correspond well to any inch sizes (11/64" = ~.172).  Don't mean to be argumentative, but don't Australians, being ex-British, use the Imperial system?  If they do, why would they make guides with metric sized posts?
 
Rick Thigpen built at least one car using these guides, but he sleeved the post to bring it up to standard (3/16") size.
 
Steve


Well, that just leaves the world famous British Whitworth!

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#16 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:16 PM

Tom,

 

Touche!

 

But... Then you'd need a different size guide nut wrench.  :laugh2:


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#17 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:38 PM

Peter,

 

New Zealand - Home of the one and only Bruce Leslie McLaren.   :clapping:   Thanks for the info - I will await your scan before updating the chart.  By the way, are the gears you mentioned sized to fit metric (example: 3mm) axles?

 

 

Philippe,

 

Looks like I guessed right about the date, huh?  :dance3:  Now I have to change it back...  :lol:


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#18 Peter Davison

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:17 AM

Steve,

 

Axles & gears were 1/8" with the British equivalent of 5-40 where threaded

 

Peter



#19 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:57 AM

Peter,

 

Which makes the seemingly metric sized guide post (.177" or ~4.5mm) on the Gold Cup guides even more of a mystery... and I enjoy a good mystery!

 

Now it seems most appropriate to use the Gold Cup guides on chassis for those scale McLaren M6 and M8 bodies I got from Pattos and Sunset.

 

Thanks for the info, and can't wait to see the scanned price list.  :good:  Most guides were produced in two post sizes; I wonder if there's another size...?

 

Steve


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#20 dc-65x

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:28 AM

Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for all your hard work gathering and posting all this great information for us :good:

 

I thought I'd ad my limited but current experience with this guide. When I first saw them on eBay I thought they were heaven sent as "real" Cox guided are scarce.

Then I discovered the undersized post. Mc Master Carr Supply to the rescue. They have 3/16" O.D. stainless steel tube with a .005 wall thickness:

morrisseychassisguideflag003.jpg

Here's the finished product with the SS tube crazy glued to the guide post:

morrisseychassisguideflag006.jpg

This guide was used in this project car:

 

What If We Had Listened To Mike Morrissey?

 

When I first tested the car with this guide it would jump, no leap, no catapult out of the slot in the turns :shok: . No amount of chassis tuning by Rodney (who is a master at this) helped. When I switched to a "real" Cox guide the car behaved normally :wacko2: . My only explanation is some sort of demonic possession :laugh2:

 

The Gold Cup guide is very nicely made and the stainless steel tube sleeve solves the undersized post problem. I should try one on in another car.....but I think I'll use up my Cox guides first  :) .


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#21 Pablo

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:05 PM

I have just left mine sloppy, and they work just fine.

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#22 TSR

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:13 PM

I was in Auckland & cannot recall these parts being available at our raceways. I think the parts were still being sold into late 70s early 80s but very hard to verify.

 

 

Peter, thanks for that. Is there a date on the price list?

When I was still the owner of Electric Dreams quite  a few years back, I was offered huge quantities of the guide (I mean, THOUSANDS!) along with spur gears and crown gears, all in that black shiny plastic and with brass setscrew hubs. The seller was Australian and told me these were "current production".

We bought a few dozens and that was it. That's the only info we ever got about these...
 


Philippe de Lespinay


#23 dc-65x

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:49 PM

I have just left mine sloppy, and they work just fine.

 
Hi Pablo,
 
I'm no slot car "tuner" that's for sure! I'm best off when I get lucky and they work well "out of the box". Otherwise, I rely on my friend Rodney for his help. He notices little things about the way a car is behaving that I don't see :dash2:
 
Anyway, check out his comments on tuning the "Got Wood" proxy car I built him:

"Rick,

Another fruitful test day at Eddie's......

Time to dial in the handling. Out of the box, the front end would dart around disturbingly under power. It drove like a a full scale car with way too much toe out. I discovered that the Cox guide was moving around in the drop arm tube. The teflon washer was replaced with three thin metal ones. The retaining self tapping screw and washer were snugged down. The guide now had controlled movement. This solved the darting problem......"

 

The guide was "wobbling" around in the tube, Rodney fixed that and the car ran better.

 

So Pablo since the slightly undersized post guides are working for you, perhaps as long as the guide is snugged down and not wobbling around like mine was, a few thousandths side to side movement doesn't matter.

 

Or, maybe if I started out with a good car to begin with the guide wouldn't be so critical :laugh2:

 

Onward... :)


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#24 Dennis David

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:19 PM

Speaking of guides, I would love to get my hands on some decent trailing guides that use full size braids.

Dennis David
    
 


#25 TSR

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:26 PM

Dennis,

Here is one that you can make into a leading or tailing guide at will:

 

TSP1-install-2.jpg  

 

This guide can be trimmed in regard to its desired use, from leading to trailing to pin-type where it would be affixed in a solid position. The front of the guide can also be shortened, its top or corners altered to fit almost any and all  situations.

 

Next question?  :)


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