47 replies to this topic

[John C Martin]

This would be a hybrid ( Irra./usra) type car. Usra front tires 675 dia.,but with BB fronts allowed. Rear tires 790 with BB allowed in chassis. This chassis would be IRRA.stockcar but 110 grams min./ With a shorter guide length allowed.to allow more bodies. Speaking of bodies have a min. roof height clearance,also Only run bodies with cut lines. Open up the wheel openings..allowing all body styles ( Saturday nite fairgrounds). Or modern era nascar , /10 thou. Bodies ,Imagine the possible bodies, widen the wheelbase to ( usra) rules ..run the Chinese P.D. Motor (no seal of course) or falcon/ TSR. . Shorten front end clearance to 15 thou./ back end clearance to 50 thou.( IRRA)..this class could make it the most popular IRRA. Class. Something for everyone chassis builders ,motor builders, and the artists like (Noose) who can paint. And, for us who love modern day NASCAR ,And stockcars. And make a much better driving and interesting car. This present IRRA stockcar class isn't broke but it needs fixin a little..IMO.. What does the B.O.D...and fellow racers think?

[John Streisguth]

Running modern bodies is counter to the whole "retro" idea, plus I have enough problems keeping things going for 4 classes.  If someone wanted to run a local regional series with them, I think it's an interesting idea.  Why not go to anglewinders and allow 3-1/4" width, so it's a step up from 4.5" flexi? 

[Noose]

There is no problem IMO with the current class when I can get 30 entrants in our series for an event.  A big part of this is because the local raceway started running this class on a routine basis so that added to the success.

 

It is the hardest retro class to drive and those that succeed in it should be very proud.

 

As an added note: Here in the East some years ago we did run 4 inch modern stock cars on the Can-Am frames.  We ran a couple of races and pretty much dropped it when the current set of rules were developed.

[Les Boyd]

The current IRRA Stock Cars are a hand full now and to make the guide lenth even shorter....

I am not sure how they would handle with the guide even closer to the front axle. And the modern 4.5" Nascar bodies do not need shorter guid lead to clear the front.  

And I am always puzzled by people wanting to put faster motors in cars that handle the worst. That just makes for more de-slots, and track calls.

But It might be fun to see if anyone can make these cars handle.

[Tom Harrington]

JC: I like Noose's idea of making the Stock Car class part of the weekly schedule utilizing the IRRA rules as they are now. We'll get to see how competitive they are as they're the opening class at the Music City Retro Shootout at Central Tennessee Raceway in LaVergne, TN, April 26-28. They're certainly more challenging to race than a 4.5 Flexi but that's part of the fun. I don't think any reconfigured class though will surpass the IRRA Can-Am class as the most popular as you stated. Hope to see you soon.

[MSwiss]

  With a shorter guide length allowed.to allow more bodies.

Of minor note, the rules already allow a shorter guide lead.

 

.750" is the max. 

[John Streisguth]

The combination of narrower width, longer wheelbase, shorter guide lead, and higher center of gravity makes these cars have a bit of a narrow limit that is a challenge to get close to but not go past.  It tends to make the field a bit more spread out from the top to bottom tiers.  But Retro East has now been racing these for 4 years, and it is remarkable how the handling has progressed with these cars, a lot more so than the other classes.

[Noose]

John is spot on.  In October 2010 at Hudson Valley Raceway the TQ time was a 5.610.  That finally got broken in December when I turned a 5.441 race lap.  The current record is 5.227 held by Chris Radisich. Some fine chassis tuning with the same FK same motors and presto. Faster.  Some will also say the Newer Parma Cyclones and OS Torinos have helped but we still have winners with the popular Dodge OS Chargers.

 

We have not seen that much of a drop in lap times in any other class.

[John C Martin]

Tom I still think stock cars could surpass can-ams if they handled better.that is the problem with FCRs a track will sell a million of them then as new people think they look fun and are simple to drive only to find out quickly. They are not that easy, they get disgusted and you never see them again..I think a stock car that is easier to drive will bring in more new people and keep them interested plus put them on a more even level..sorry Tom I'm still banned at LaVergne ..maybe you can make it to the RETRO RACE IN TALLEDEGA ON MAY 11th, expecting 20 + cars. F1, can-am, and stock cars.
Mike Swiss you are correct .. My bad.
Les, the motor isn't faster, it's just rebuildable by you..and of course it'll handle better, wider wheel base, lighter body with more flex. Less front end clearance..that's the secret to the secret recipe. LOL.

[Les Boyd]

Les, the motor isn't faster, it's just rebuildable by you..and of course it'll handle better, wider wheel base, lighter body with more flex. Less front end clearance..that's the secret to the secret recipe. LOL.

 

Every report I have seen about the Chinese arm 4002 say that it is faster than the American arm 4002 PD and way faster than the Falcon 7, Not only have I seen reports but I have raced against them and found them to be much faster. Why do you think IRRA stoped allowing them to be run in Can-Am, F1, and GT........they are faster. MPO is that when the Chinese 4002 arm was changed it should have been removed from the IRRA approved motor list, but that was not up to me.

This is way off track.

The IRRA Stock Car would be a lot more fun to run if they where not allowed motors that are so fast. The way the chassis rules are set makes them not handle as well as the other IRRA classes. Then to put a faster motor in them makes them even harder to control. 

[MSwiss]

 

 ......they are faster. MPO is that when the Chinese 4002 arm was changed it should have been removed from the IRRA approved motor list,

In defense of myself and the other existing IRRA tm BOD , we didn't discover they were changed until approx. 3 years after the fact,

and a fair amount had been purchased in good faith, by Retro racers all across the country.

[Les Boyd]

 I was only saying what is my opinion about the Chinese Arm 4002 situation , NOT AT ALL trying to say that the IRRA board was not doing what they should. I would not have wanted to deal with that mess. The IRRA board had the INTESTINAL FORTITUDE to  make a decision and to stand by it. We need alot more of that in this country.

 The blame goes to the manufacture (or who ever ask them) for changing the arms, when they knew the IRRA rules. 

 Yes some people had bought the motors not knowing that they had been changed but not everyone. Some, when they found out that the arms had been changed and they where faster, went out and started buying them. Even though they knew the IRRA rules.

Again we are drifting way off.

 I am going to the Music City Shootout a week from Friday, and I will try to keep count of the track calls for the Stock Car class and the GT-FK & PD class and see what it turns out.

Because at the track I run at the main complant I hear (and I share) is that there are too many deslots and track calls in the 4.5" Stock Car Class and that is why some (an myself) are not running in that class. 

This is a case where faster is not better.

[Tom Harrington]

Les: Look forward to racing with you at the Shootout. You can run one of my Stock Cars if you'd like to try this class out. I bet you'll be surprised and hooked! See you then

[John Streisguth]

Retro East has one of the most active groups racing the stock cars, and the fast guys are not running the chinese arm 4002s because they have way too much power.  Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

And if there are a lot of track calls, the FK motors will coast so much more the slightly slower straightaway speed will be nulified.

[John C Martin]

Every report I have seen about the Chinese arm 4002 say that it is faster than the American arm 4002 PD and way faster than the Falcon 7, Not only have I seen reports but I have raced against them and found them to be much faster. Why do you think IRRA stoped allowing them to be run in Can-Am, F1, and GT........they are faster. MPO is that when the Chinese 4002 arm was changed it should have been removed from the IRRA approved motor list, but that was not up to me.
This is way off track.
The IRRA Stock Car would be a lot more fun to run if they where not allowed motors that are so fast. The way the chassis rules are set makes them not handle as well as the other IRRA classes. Then to put a faster motor in them makes them even harder to control.

. I can only agree to disagree..depends on track power, depends on track layout,depends on gear ratios, depends on driving ability, depends on how good your car works. And it's not about speed, it's about laps turned..Me I like all the motor or speed I can get, me I will make the car work. Just saying the class would be more popular with better handling cars IMO. If the cars worked better most people would look for more speed and better drivers are now,because they have the car figured out..Lesser drivers don't and thus won't run them..you said it yourself ( the way the chassis rules are set makes them not handle as well as the other IRRA classes.) and they'd be a lot more fun if they weren't so fast..If the cars worked better more people will drive them and that's it. That's no IMO that's a fact!!

[John Streisguth]

And I would have to agree to disagree with that assessment.  Does everything have to be made "easy' so more people can enjoy it?  Doesn't anyone want to work a little harder to achieve something? Does everything have to be "vanilla" so that it's accessable to everyone?

 

IMO the current rules are good. But that does not mean you cant start something yourself in your neck of the woods.  Who knows, it could be the "next big thing". 

[Rick]

It would pretty simple for the IRRA to offer, short track NASCAR and Speedway Nascar and then see where the cards fall. I would be willing to bet that the Short Track Class would over take Speedway in short span of time. And they look really kool! SOmething that should be considered when a noob lays his eyes for the first time on something new for him.

First impressions carry a lot of weight

 

Short Track:

 

Radiused Wheelwells

track width front and rear   3 1/4"

 

Everything else remians the same: clearances, tires, weight etc.

 

ALL bodies now become equal and a much more diverse looking field.

 

The motor issue is a debacle but, it is what it is now. The track would dictate more of which motor I would use and the field of racers than their(motor) individual performance.

[John C Martin]

Yes John I think it does for a new be,first you get them hooked with how much fun it can be, staying on not chasing your car.then as they get better driving they'll enjoy it more..
Rick you are dead on, I'm glad someone can see my intentions ,thank you! What's hurting the handling is the body thickest and the front end clearance, and wheelbase of course..but any of this improved I think would want even more people wanting to run this class, how many people follow NASCAR compared to f1s and can- ams races ??

[Noose]

Well that could be John but then again take what a raceway did here locally.  Specifically Slots-A-Lot and a couple of guys like George Blaha and Duffy who got the class run locally to the existing rules and it grew and grew and grew and is still growing.  That in itself helped to contribute to the 30 entries we had when we were just there for one of our events.

 

Now I know a lot of guys like racing these on ovals.  What I found is we lost entrants when we did that and when we went back to the road courses as the primary tracks we run these on we saw the entries grow.  Heck, even ol Jersey John who swore off stock cars came back and built one heck of a very smooth car.

 

The biggest change that made these cars work the best was tire choices so you kept them just loose enough to make them really work.  It's a perfect example IMO of where the proverbial spec tire would turn this class to garbage unless it was one frame specifically built for a given track using that tire.  As I noted before, this is the only class where I have seen times on the same track drop almost 3/10ths in a couple of years vs. any of the other classes.  None of the faster times were with more horsepower either.  Guys figured out the ideal weight to run at, tuned with tires and gearing. 

 

If you want something different locally, throw the allowed  Stock car bodies on the FCR cars and run them locally.  We had just started to do that before one of the tracks closed here. I set one up and when I tested it on a day we ran the real class, the car would have made the top of the B main in qualifying.  It was plenty fast, handled well,etc. Go with the modified body rule there.

[John C Martin]

FCR s need lots of help won't get into that..been there done that ,have nats trophys to prove it.their dead around here.
But I don't think many people want to run their retro stock cars on most tri ovals ..most turn into last man standing..I love tri ovals most people don't..
I agree weight in the right places and keeping the car loose is it..
But I know also some people don't like the class, I guess because of there inabilities to make them work as good as a can-am. The stock cars can be improved, with little rule changes. Without rocking the boat to much.IOM... I'll run them, I don't care if we run 3 wheels on them,I'm just trying to add more racers. By making them easier to drive for the newer people we have coming in..

[Noose]

John, if the guys running them help the guys coming in to set them up right they will be easier. Heck a newbie placed 9th overall out of 30 at our last race and it was his first series retro race outside of the weekly stuff.  It can be done. 

[John C Martin]

Just say'n could be better but I agree with you on that.helping nebes
answer this, which is more popular NASCAR or f1s and can-ams to the public I think this is mainly who are racers are.we can always find ways to add more people to our races..we used to race till day light on week ends , but we didn't race can- ams or f1s, it was NASCAR...If we could I'd like a class like Rick talked about added see how that works and go from there, Gt coupe is to much like can-am..could be replaced.. Let's shake it up..anyone else agree, if not I'll shut up..LOL..

[John Streisguth]

Problem is trying to chase more entrys by changing the rules.  People will come, people will go, in slot car racing, I don't care what you run. If you start a never ending cycle of rules changes just to make a few people happy, you can also end up driving off people who have already built cars and have done the work to improve their lap times.  More important for longevity of a series is the stability of rules, which IMO is the reason for the success of retro racing.

 

John, why don't you take the bull by the horns and start a local series for this, and prove your point? 

[Pablo]

You can have the other woman, just don't mess with my toot toot (accordian music)

Don't mess with IRRA. It works fine just the way it is.

Heck, even Pablo set up an IRRA Rules event and it came off without a hitch. Proving any dummy can replicate success using proven IRRA Rules. No subset rules.  Straight IRRA.

 

If JC comes up with a crazy new class, of course I'll race in it. As long as the rules are clear (which I'm sure they would be)

 

But, don't mess with my toot toot. 

[JimF]

I'll share what will certainly be a minority viewpoint on this.

 

In Nor Cal Retro, we had been racing inline Falcon 7 powered stock cars with slammed bodies (ie: ED Mercury Cyclone, Lancer Daytona) for many years. Yes.....they were a handful.

 

Then, we changed our motor to the slower Slick 7 MB and changed bodies to the tall O/S etc versions. They are still a handful b/c the tall body makes them handle "worse" not better. But, because they are slower than before, they are easier to drive not harder. The racing spread is tighter not wider and the racers have more fun because to driving isn't as stressful. In general there are far fewer deslots in this class than in our much faster ("better") Can Am class and the lap spreads are closer.

 

In general, we have found over the last six years that making cars "better" by making them faster or better handling does not improve the racing experience.....rather, it tends to degrade it. Slowing them down makes it more fun and cleaner.

 

Just sayin'.................