21 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

After getting assurance from Jerry Kulich that I will be able to receive, in time, adequate quantities of the newly-approved Hawk Retro FK motor,
I've decided to exercise the long standing hand-out option in all three King track classes, including F1 and Can-Am, at this year's Sano.
 
GTC-FK and GTC-PD will remain the same with the existing list of PD-only drivers enforced.
 
That list can be found HERE.
 
For F1 and Can-Am, a new list has been created by the IRRA™, which only excludes past winners of F1 or Can-Am , at non-flat track, premier events, from entering the (FK) hand-out class.
 
That list can be seen HERE.
 
This should be a win-win situation for the racers.
 
Ones who would prefer to run their own motors and get to tangle with the likes of such Retro luminaries as Matt Bruce, Cap Henry, and Howie Ursaner, they will be allowed to do so in the PD class, just like at past Sanos.
 
For those who like the idea of running (untested FK) hand-outs, and race with their contempories, they will have that option in the FK class.
 
As in the GTC-FK class, the winner of F1-FK and Can-Am FK will have the option to join the PD race that follows, N/C, using whatever type motor they choose except for the new Retro Hawk, but using only their winning chassis and body.

 
Note, the winner of F1-FK will still be allowed to race in Can-Am-FK, the following day, assuming of course, they haven't also won  F1-PD.
 
Friday:
GTC-FK - King
GTC-PD - King
F1 - Flat track
 
Friday will be the only day that FK and PD are teched, qualified, and raced separately, as to give our IRRA™ tech inspector, Joe Neumeister, to get some practice in before he races in GTC-PD.
 
F1 Flat will start teching 45 minutes after the conclusion of the GTC-PD A Main.
 
Saturday
F1-FK
F1-PD
Can-Am - Flat track

F1-FK and PD will practice and tech at the same time, followed by FK qualifying, PD qualifying, FK racing, and PD racing.
 
Can-Am Flat will start teching 45 minutes after the conclusion of the F1-PD A Main.
 
Sunday
Can-Am-FK
Can-Am-PD
Can-Am-FK and PD will practice and tech at the same time, followed by FK qualifying, PD qualifying, FK racing, and PD racing.

[MSwiss]

Note: as mentioned, the hand-outs is only an option that applies to the Sano.

Other premier events will be run as the owner sees fit.

[The Groove]

Swiss,

Since it's a approved motor why split the classes just run what motor you want? Sounds like your trying to make the day longer than it already is. And my and other's decisiond on whether to go or not to go is starting to swing in the other direction.

[Matt Bruce]

I agree with Rich. Tier 1 classes should be all together. Splitting them up looks like motor gouging. Besides its bad enough there is one black list to have your name on, to now have two is getting redundant. The next list will be you can't come. I travel to race everybody not the same guys all the time. As the owner you can do it anyway you choose but as a racer it sucks for the guys who can't race. Instead of splitting classes why not run Stock cars with handout FKs so everyone can race.

[Guillermo Suar]

I would just keep the handout option and let everybody race it. That will keep the day shorter.

[MSwiss]

Instead of splitting classes why not run Stock cars with handout FKs so everyone can race.

 

Not enough time to race Stock cars.

[MSwiss]

Splitting them up looks like motor gouging. 

 

I don't expect to sell a lot of motors on Saturday and Sunday.

 

I'll be thrilled to get a full FK Main, with 8 guys that would never have a chance to run against you in a "normal" F1 or Can-Am A Main.

 

But, who knows what will happen on Saturday or Sunday ?

 

The Hawk Retro might turn out to be a dismal failure on Friday in GTC-FK and no one will want to race them on Saturday or Sunday,

and I might wind up throwing away 8 plaques.

[MSwiss]

 I travel to race everybody not the same guys all the time. 

 

I would agree with that but with the "Retro East" style format like I've used the last three (?) years, realistically, are you "racing" everybody?

 

Are you ever racing on the track against the D Main guys at a Retro East race?

 

If it was the format like Mike McM used at R4/2, your comment would have all the merit in the world, but it's not.

 

BTW, a fine format, but one for some reason that has fallen out of favor in recent years.

 

If the FK/PD split wasn't already working well, or I thought the victory by the winner of the PD A Mains would in anyway be diminished, I wouldn't 

do this.

 

Personally, back when I was a pretty good wing racer, I was more concerned who I beat in the Main.

 

Who finished 65th, or even if there was 65 guys didn't mean anything to me.

 

I was more proud of my '90 Nats win beating 44 guys than I was beating 64(?) guys in '88, so much so, I have zero idea how many exact entrants there was in '88.

 

I felt all the top guys were still there and the challenge of the track was more important to me then the total number participating.

 

Anyway, Matt, this is something I felt I had to try.

 

I know it's a bit of a gamble, but I gambled when I decided to host the first Sano in 2007.

[John Miller]

I recall a problem with the FK type motors not counting on your track at recent Sano events.

 

So, do the new motors count laps on your track?

[Bernie]

John,

 

The one year we ran TSRs there was a problem ( I know, one was me!). Falcon 7s and Hawk motors were never a problem that I can recall.

 

Hopefully the new JK motor will not be a problem.

[MSwiss]

I recall a problem with the FK type motors not counting on your track at recent Sano events.

 

So, do the new motors count laps on your track?

 

That was only the zero-3 degree timed TSR D3's.

 

I've never had a problem with the 13(?) degree Falcon 7s, or for that matter Hawk 7s in JK Spec.

 

The JK Retro Hawk has the same timing as the Falcon 7 and counted perfect in testing.

[MSwiss]

The one year we ran TSRs there was a problem ( I know, one was me!). Falcon 7s and Hawk motors were never a problem that I can recall.
 
Hopefully the new JK motor will not be a problem

 
As posted above in #11, correct, and as mentioned, the Hawk Retro counted immediately and consistently.

[MSwiss]

I would just keep the handout option and let everybody race it. That will keep the day shorter.

 

Not fair to the guys who want to run their own motor, especially at such a late juncture.

 

 sounds like your trying to make the day longer than it already is.

 

Rich,

 

I've already shortened the days by eliminating JK Spec and JK Super Spec, with GTC-FK and GTC- PD on the King, now moved up to that Friday time slot.

 

Thus, GTC and F1 no longer share a day.

 

We also won't be breaking for lunch this year.

 

On Saturday and Sunday, practice, tech, and qualifying will be at the same time and of course, then means PD racing immediately will follow the FK A Main.

 

Guys can enter only one class, so it will be the same number of entries plus 1, the winner of FK that can jump into the last spot in PD.

 

Splitting might add one more Main and might not add any.

 

I don't see anyone, especially ones that are running on the King only, having to stay late at all.

 

I think splitting it will be well worth getting three more smiling guys holding A Main plaques.

[redbackspyder]

Sure seems strange that zero timed TSR D3 motors do not count, whereas we never have a problem with them counting out here??? The amount of power at the dead strip will affect some motors and their counting, but this is a track problem, not a motor problem...

[kvanpelt]

FWIW, I kinda like the idea!

 

For most of us, it probably won't affect us as we will keep racing our PD motors. (Gotta keep Ron and Dan happy with those refurbs.)  Besides, we still need the dream of running in an A Main with Matt, Howie, and Cap.

 

But offering  the motor choice as an option, we may bring in, or back, people that prefer FK style motors. Other than the coupe class, these guys won't race as the rules are currently written, the FK motor just can't compete well with the PDs.

 

Personally, I would rather see the weight minimum removed from the FK-powered cars in an effort to bridge the performance. Maybe that would allow some FK motors in the class.

 

Who knows, we might even get a few west coast racers to show up if they could compete with their current cars with no need to mess with the PDs!

 

[Dennis David]

Being a complete outsider I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway. LOL

To me it looks like Mike put a lot of thought into this event and racers should remember the benificiary of this race and attend with an open mind.

[gascarnut]

Good points! Some comments:
 

FWIW, I kinda like the idea!
 
For most of us, it probably won't affect us as we will keep racing our PD motors. (Gotta keep Ron and Dan happy with those refurbs)  Besides, we still need the dream of running in an A-main with Matt, Howie, and Cap.
 
But offering  the motor choice as an option, we may bring in, or back, people that prefer FK style motors. Other than the coupe class, these guys won't race as the rules are currently written, the FK motor just can't compete well with the PD's.

It's not really the rules that are the issue, it's the tracks. Put the races on flat tracks and lower the power to 12 volts or so, instead of 13+ volts and the whole equation changes. We saw that at Sano 2 - the flat track races had very mixed fields of motors, as the PD has no advantage under those circumstances.
 

Personally, I would rather see the weight minimum removed from the FK powered cars in an effort to bridge the performance. Maybe that would allow some FK motors in the class.

Retro Tokyo are doing this, maybe Haruki can tell us all how it is working out?
 

Who knows, we might even get a few west coast racers to show up if they could compete with their current cars with no need to mess with the PDs!

Who knows? I think it would take a combination of things to make a real difference. The rules differences don't stop at weight limits, and then there is the track voltage, plus other more personal issues like travel expenses to consider.

[Matt Bruce]

I would agree with that but with the "Retro East" style format like I've used the last 3 (?) years, realistically, are you "racing" everybody ?
 
Are you ever racing on the track against the D Main guys at a Retro East race?
 
If it was the format like Mike McM used at R4/2, your comment would have all the merit in the World, but it's not.
 
BTW, a fine format, but one for some reason that has fallen out of favor in recent years.
 
If the FK/PD split wasn't already working well, or I thought the victory by the winner of the PD A Mains would in anyway be diminished, I wouldn't 
do this.
 
Personally, back when I was a pretty good wing racer, I was more concerned who I beat in the Main.
 
Who finished 65th, or even if there was 65 guys didn't mean anything to me.
 
I was more proud of my '90 Nat's win beating 44 guys than I was beating 64(?) guys in '88 , so much so, I have zero idea how many
exact entrants there was in '88.
 
I felt all the top guys were still there and the challenge of the track was more important to me then the total # participating.
 
Anyway, Matt, this is something I felt I had to try.
 
I know it's a bit of a gamble, but I gambled when I decided to host the first Sano in 2007.

I understand. I'm a good sport, I'll even volunteer to marshal the deadman for the FK races on the King.

[MSwiss]

We need someone super-handsome down in there.

[Rick]

Just a suggestion on my part, but why not run FK/PD as one big race and score separately? Could save time and not change the outcome...

[MSwiss]

Not a bad idea, but if one FK racer got an A Main sit-out, they would probably have a big advantage.
 
I prefer your on the track at the same time with the seven other guys you're trying to beat.
 
To be clear, there is no break between FK and PD races on Saturday and Sunday.
 
I'm guessing it will extend the program by one main which should be made up by not breaking for lunch.

[MSwiss]

 
As in the GTC-FK class, the winner of F1-FK and Can-Am FK will have the option to join the PD race that follows, N/C, using whatever type motor they choose except for the new Retro Hawk, but using only their winning chassis and body. 

To alleviate any fears the new Retro Hawk might be a game changer on the King, I won't allow them to be entered in the non-hand-out classes (PD) on the King. The above passage has been edited in post #1 to indicate as such.
 
IOW, anyone winning the Hand-out FK class in GTC, F1 or Can-Am, must change to any other legal motor if they choose to enter the non-hand-out (PD) class.