60 replies to this topic

[Cheater]

[Mac]

Thanks for posting all the photos and keeping us updated with all the racing at the Sano. It helps ease the pain of not being there.

I'm sure I can speak for lots of old retro racers... we wish we were there.

Mac

[CruzinBob]

Great stuff, thanx.

I see both Falcons and the PS Mini (with American arms). I don't see how the Falcons keep up with with the PS?!

[edriley39]

Where can I get the PS Mini and the chassis? Chicagoland Raceway? The first red car?

[MantaRay]

First red car was built by Dennis Samson aka Gascarnut.
PS Minis and Retro Can-Am and F1 chassis and parts are available at Chicagoland.

[Cheater]

More pics to come in a few moments. I only got half of the GT car pics uploaded before Swiss ran us off last night.

As soon as I wolf down my Egg McMuffin...

[Cheater]

[edriley39]

Two questions: What and where can I get the chassis in the picture with the red body, and what kind of body is the red car and the orange at the bottom?

[MG Brown]

...and what kind of body is the red car and the orange at the bottom?

I examined this car quite closely. I know that it is a Porsche 917/1969 and is molded in (probably) .015" PETG.

[TSR]

I see both Falcons and the PS Mini (with American arms). I don't see how the Falcons keep up with with the PS?!

Bob,

After the D3 race at BP last Saturday, where several Retro Can-Am cars now all fitted with the D3-spec motors (comparable in performance to the latest Falcons) BLEW the official qualifying RetroPro King track record set with the PS-American arm/anglewinder, that in an INLINE chassis on a bogged track, maybe you should not ask yourself such a question.

Your own qualifying lap time last Saturday with your inline/D3 should have you easily qualify in the top five of a typical RetroPro race, even on an unstuck track. Stick it in a competitive anglewinder chassis and see what happens.

Truth is, the new FK motors (both the Falcon VII and the new D3) are a giant lap forward in technology in rear-view mirror motor development. Think of them as the AMG or Motorsport edition of rear-view mirror motors.

[TSR]

...and what kind of body is the red car and the orange at the bottom?

I examined this car quite closely. I know that it is a Porsche 917/1969 and is molded in (probably) .015 PETG.

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Old MESAC bodies sometimes re-surface... soon to be in 10-thou Lexan.

[CruzinBob]

...Truth is, the new FK motors (both the Falcon VII and the new D3) are a giant leap forward in technology...

Thanks, Dokk. I am pretty amazed at their performance. It's hard to pat you on the back but GOOD WORK!

[TSR]

Bob,

It's not so hard with a tennis racket.

[Ron Hershman]

After the D3 race at BP last Saturday, where several Retro Can-Am cars now all fitted with the D3-spec motors (comparable in performance to the latest Falcons) BLEW the official qualifying RetroPro King track record set with the PS-American arm/anglewinder, that in an INLINE chassis on a bogged track, maybe you should not ask yourself such a question.

Your own qualifying lap time last Saturday with your inline/D3 should have you easily qualify in the top five of a typical RetroPro race, even on an unstuck track. Stick it in a competitive anglewinder chassis and see what happens.

Truth is, the new FK motors (both the Falcon VII and the new D3) are a giant lap forward in technology in rear-view mirror motor development. Think of them as the AMG or Motorsport edition of rear-view mirror motors.

Hmmm, at the Sano in Chicago, neither motor had a "speed" advantage over one another. Both appeared to have equal speed. I am sure that if Dave F, had run a Pro Slot motor versus his Falcon 7, the outcome and results would have been the same with him winning the same races and becoming the most "SANO" dude on the planet.

What will be interesting is when Pro Slot motor/arm uses the same ga. of wire and number of turns as the new Falcon7/TSR motor.

That will get the troops riled a bit.

[TSR]

And your comment, Ron is EXACTLY why we froze the spec for D3 motors, to avoid the very horsepower and money race that we KNEW would begin. We are also seing the same trend towards tires and are going to seriously discuss the possibility of a spec tire for 2008 before things get out of control. Did one say NASCAR-style dictatorship? I say: what makes the most sense for racers who cannot afford to keep up with the big boyz. Me? I don't give a sh*t, if I have to pay a grand for a car, who cares, I can afford it. For people like (Name Witheld), a 10-dollar motor that lasts and runs as fast as all the others is a godsend, because his budget is VERY limited and sometimes he does not race because he can't afford the entry fee. Now you want to sell a 40-dollar motor to this guy? What is the advantage?

At this time, it is also a simple matter of economics for us: either spend 40 bucks and get a motor that will run two-three races (maybe four) before needing a rebuild at $15 to $25 depending on mail costs, or spend 10 bucks and get a motor at least as fast (faster right now here, but probably even on other tracks) and run two-three races (maybe four) and throw it away, then use the other 30 bucks to buy tires, bodies, gears... For the rebuild cost, buy two more motors and start over again.

It makes absolutely NO sense to us to have to spend the money for no better performance (speed OR reliability) AND/OR economic advantage.

Besides this, D3 needs a stable formula to prosper. A horsepower race is not a stable format, and I believe that most would prefer to leave the motor equation out of the picture.

However, whatever makes you happy is fine with me. In the meantime, we pack 'em in at every race down here in La-La Land, and now that the D3-spec is going to be the motor used in F1, I expect the entries to explode.

D3 was created as a chassis builder series and not a motor building competition between cottage-industry manufacturers. This is why we have closed and locked the lid on it. And most everyone here is quite happy about it including the very ones who decried the decision in the first place.

[Ron Hershman]

You froze it to get your investment back on the new motors and nothing else by keeping out the competition.

The spec has been frozen after the new/revised motors were reworked and caught up with the performance of the "other" motor out there. Changing the magnets, wire gauge, and number of turns is nothing more than a "band-aid" fix and offers nothing in new development. Changing these items put your motor one step ahead of the PS and was neccessary to get that one step ahead. I guess if speed, or lack of speed, the previous motors would have continued to work fine. Again, looking at the laps sheets and qualifying and race times, nothing has changed in equal speeds. There is still over a 6/10's difference in the same class as there was before. All the racers have now is a faster motor at more cost. Time will tell ift your way if the new motors last longer or not... most other parts of the country have already realized the new motors have a way shorter life span than the previous motors.

If all the motors run the same speed then there is no advantage. If the motors run the same and sell for different prices, then why not let them all run against each other and let the racer DECIDE which way he wants to spend his money? You're right, it's a dictatorship, who invested their own money, locked up the class so they can retain and recoup their investment, and nothing more than that. We already proved this past weekend that the motors can co-exist in the same class racing against open and unopened motors and all run the same speed basically. Again, it was up to the racers to decide what they wanted to spend and use. I think the pics clearly show the Pro-Slot was the "choice" over the other motors. Like I said, the winner would have still won even if he had used a PS motor. Nothing was proved except that the motors all pretty much ran the same and all could be opened up and all still ran the same. No one was forced to buy the more costly PS motors, but they did on their own and had a great time with no motor failures. While the FK may be a quarter of the cost of a PS motor, the FK also has a quarter or less lifespan than the PS motor. You get what you pay for. It was no horsepower race in Chi-town.

Just because you finally came out with a 10 dollar motor to compete with a 40 dollar motor is no reason to throw out the 40 dollar motor, except if you are looking to recoup your investment and the only way to do that is to keep out the competition. That has nothing to do with racers making their own choice. Let the $12. and S40 motors in and let the racers decide what they want to run and how much they want to spend. Yea right. LOL

I would also expect the F1 entries to explode as you get more and new racers involved as well as the current racers who may decide to start running two classes at the races that have two events per event. That's common sense.

[TSR]

Ron,

With all due respect I believe that you don't have a clue. I can p*ss that money in a day, and would still not care.
The reason why we did it has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING you said above.

Frankly, you are too much of a racer in your core and I don't think that you will ever get it...

[Ron Hershman]

Naw, I got it... that last post got me more "atta boys" in PMs than I have ever gotten, but that's not what it's about. I think you may have pissed away your money on your latest creation and if you don't think so, open the rules and let the other motors run and see if I am right over time. Is the word "choice" not in your vocabulary? If your motor is "best" in equal performance and economics, then no one will run the other motors. Right???

I must not be the only one here who doesn't "have a clue" and doesn't "get it" by the responses I have gotten today. One asked me if I was feeling bit feisty today and I said what would you expect if one had his wisdom teeth cut out earlier in the day.

You don't get it I am afraid... all you have offered is a "faster" motor that is no faster than the motors before it. Go look at the lap times again and see the difference between the motors. The motors are still not equal.

[TSR]

Ron,

That does not even deserve an answer.

[jimht]

Not to interfere with the "discussion", which has elements in it that have nothing to do with D3..but can't we just have one program that bans rebuildable motors?
And perhaps just let it develop whether you think there are issues or not?!

Nobody sees anything wrong with requiring black tires or inline gears or Can-Am bods or whatever & some of that stuff is never going to be equal either.
The class attempts to take motors out of the equation & by doing so allows/compels the racer to play with something else...chassis...which have been incredibly stagnant for years.
Any maroon can put over the counter chassis, motors & bodies together to assemble a car, but the racer that builds the chassis has become involved with the Hobby...and I think that person is going to be with it much longer than the assembler.
We haven't been selling the Hobby for quite a while; how about we just try this without the allegations that may or may not be true, but are certainly irrelevant to the underlying concept of D3?

[TSR]

Jim,

Some here are at this time organizing a D3 chassis kit that will involve the novices into soldering bits together, at least part of it, kind of a soldering school. The chassis is being devised by Bryan Warmack and will look similar to the one he is successfully racing as it seems to work everywhere tried.

The kit will come in three versions all the way to a complete kit with no need to purchase another part but requiring the aforementioned soldering. The basic parts are water-jet cut from .042" brass and these cars may run in a class of their own or together with all others, we will see and figure out what is best.

Once the basic building will have been achieved, we hope that the racers will want to do more of it.

I guess one thing at a time. The first examples should be ready in December.

We do encourage small businesses to manufacture chassis kits as long as they are sold through the host raceway.

[MantaRay]

The basic parts are water-jet cut from .042" brass

OK... I'll be the first to ask... What is "Retro" about water-jet cut brass? You are so fastidious about undercuts on bodies, F1-chassis widths, drivers, and other seemingly endless minor details... yet, you are using water jet cutting to make a kit...

I await the verbal abuse.

[jimht]

OK, Dokk, sounds good, but you need to make the brass parts look as if they were stamped because that technology is what's truely "Retro"...or perhaps issue the racer a chisel with the kit.
Hey , Ron, it's not about duplicating the good old days, they weren't that great anyway.
It's about having fun...did you have fun in Chicago?
Wouldn't you have had just as much fun if all the motors had been FK's?

[Ron Hershman]

I had a blast in Chicago, Jim.

If the motors had been all FK, then I would have probably stayed home... kinda like the West Coast guys decided to do after hearing that the Pro Slot motors were going to be allowed to race along with the FKs.

If it had been all FKs... there would have been quite a few more staying home, too.

[Tex]

I've erased my original post. Sounds like much ado over nothing. Please confine your sniping to PMs so the rest of us can enjoy that which is the best of D3/Retro racing. Thank you.