29 replies to this topic

[Greg VanPeenen]

A question for the board about chassis building materials.
 
Would it be possible to use brass alloys such as bronze and silver nickel brass in the construction of chassis for use under IRRA™ rules. I see some bronze being used. I would like to start using silver nickel brass rod and sheet and bronze rod in the construction of my chassis if it would be allowed under the rules.
 
Just want to be sure if it's legal first.
 
Regards,

Greg VanPeenen

[chaparrAL]

Phosphorous bronze? I think that may be what you want.

[Rick]

That would be nickle plated brass GVP? I had some F1 chassis nickle plated a few years ago and they were permitted. The nickle would only be a couple of tenths thick and just make it look pretty, still brass underneath. ..............

[MSwiss]

Definitely not what he was asking about.

PS: The BoD is discussing this.

[Rick]

IMO, plated brass doesn't mean a thing but I don't make the rules. Now, how would know the difference from plated brass and SS??...

[MSwiss]

He's asking about nickel brass and bronze, not plated brass.

In the case of plated brass, if you suspected it was something else, you could scratch/scrape it with a sharp X-Acto.

[Milkman]

I would keep it simple and within the spirit of retro Racing. Brass/copper sheet, brass/copper rod and tubing, and steel "piano" wire. All these materials were available "back when" and still are today at your local hardware store. No one will have to hunt down anything different. 

And how hard is it to tell if one is using nickel-plated brass vs SS vs nickel-plated aluminum vs platinum-plated titanium?

[Milkman]

From the IRRA™ rules:

Brass: sheet, rod, and tube; Bronze: rod; Steel: wire, pin tubing, and commercial guide tongues are allowed. No other
materials are allowed.
 
Looks like bronze rod is OK. Silver nickle brass would be a no according to the chassis material rules. Silver nickle brass sounds cool, but what's wrong with just using good ole 260 or 360 brass?

[Phil Hackett]

And how hard is it to tell if one is using nickle plated brass vs SS vs nickle plated aluminum vs platinum plated titanium?

 
There are ways of telling all these apart.
 
Easily. 
 
Clue: everyone in a slot car raceway has one.

[Milkman]

Is it something sharp?

[TSR]

A flux capacitor detector. Everyone has one of them things, don't you?

[Ramcatlarry]

All "brass" is an alloy - a mixture of copper PLUS another.  Brazing rod is an alloy, much different from K&S stock......

 

Tool?  magnet>>>?

[TSR]

A brass magnet?

[Hworth08]

My tool guess would be a Dremel with a cutting wheel to perform the "spark test".

 

NASCAR or Lloyds of London, NASCAR's insurer at the time, was always grinding or drilling (thickness) our roll cages,

[Milkman]

All "brass" is an alloy - a mixture of copper PLUS another.  Brazing rod is an alloy, much different from K&S stock......
 
Tool?  magnet>>>?

Brass is made of copper and zinc, bronze is an alloy of copper and tin.

[Phil Hackett]

OK.... The fear of brass plated Titanium... not gonna happen. Why? $$$$... that's why but, yes, dragging a cutting disk across Titanium will result in white (bright ones at that) sparks. A chassis made using a lot of Titanium would also be suspiciously lightweight. Stainless steel will have "iron" or "steel" sparks that have no sprigs ( <--- Google word of the day) and are more orange than yellow. Plus Stainless steel is very faintly magnetic (hold a magnet by a string or chain and bring to close to the material and it'll be weakly attracted). Brass, of course, doesn't spark or is magnetic although some bronze alloys are...

 

Brass alloys: is always a Copper & Zinc mixture. Sometimes Zinc is used in Bronzes but it's always in very small amounts. These are exceptions like Naval Bronze (CDA 464) (<--- Google term of the day)

 

Bronze alloys: always something other than a Copper and Zinc (major alloying percentage) mixture. The primary metals used with Copper in bronze alloys are: Nickel, Tin, Aluminum and  Manganese. Some people refer to Beryllium Copper (CDA 510 <- Another Google Term Of The Day) as Beryllium Bronze but it's technically a "Copper".

 

In every one of these cases the metal substitute **will** cost more than the brass already used in slot cars (CDA 260 <--- GTOTD). Titanium is ***very*** expensive (DUH!) and might require a minimum purchase by the supplier. Also, the very common alloys of Titanium available to the average person are not, or can't be, heat treated. Unhardened Titanium is very soft. Heat treated Titanium wire probably won't bend easily or will snap.

 

Identifying metals takes a little practice. I worked for almost 2 years separating Stainless Steel, Titanium, Nickel-bearing, Cobalt and exotic alloys. The complexity happens when you need to know the specific alloy not just the alloy family. This is done through a chemical inspection. They now have hand-held X-Ray backscatter machines that will identify the **exact** alloy of the metal. Think big $.

[Greg VanPeenen]

Silver Nickel Brass is BRASS. Just a bit stronger then cartridge brass that is in use now. The reason I would like to use it is it looks different (Silver in color) and doesn't tarnish. No rocket science involved. The rocket science is in the little brass things on the tuning fork rails.  That and the new Russian magnetic Titanium rod.

 

Awaiting the Boards findings.

 

Regards,

Greg VanPeenen

[MSwiss]

Greg,

We're still discussing it.
 
Also, of minor note, when you called yesterday, you only mentioned nickel silver rod, not sheet.

[Hworth08]

Is nickel silver used to arc weld aluminum? We used to do quick dirty in-the-field aluminum welds with a portable arc welder and some kind of expensive rod. Then nice welds with tungsten wire and argon in the shop.

[S.O. Watt]

What is the price difference and availability of this material?

Doubt I could get it locally from my slot track or a welding supply.

A bag o' worms sounds like to me, just saying.

[Greg VanPeenen]

Tom,
 
Just because I would use it, no one would be forcing you to use it, If you don't like the worms don't fish with them. The cost is not an issue, it can be found on the internet. Not sure if K&S has it. It is only metal, no magical powers.
 
Don and Tom,
 
It is not used for welding as far as I know.
 
Mike,
 
Rod is the main use I would have for it to replace brass and bronze rod. But it would be nice to be able to build a car that would look like new ten years from now.
 
Regards,

Greg VanPeenen

[slotcarone]

Greg,

If you are worried about tarnish try some metal polish after your chassis are done. The brass shines like gold and it helps keep it looking good for a long time!!

[Mike K]

Doesn't sound "Retro"...

[brnursebmt]

"Retro" went out the window not long after the idea came into being. It's a motor builders class now!
 
Sorry, Greg. But I feel better now!

[Cap Henry]

I'm with Tom. New materials aren't needed.