1441 replies to this topic

[Larry Mattingly]

You mean to tell me that you are permitted to have FUN?

Enjoy...

LM

[Cheater]

Only if I get permisson from SWMBO!! LOL!!!

Actually, it's a working day for me, since Jay Guard and I will be running the event.

But, yeah, if it wasn't fun I wouldn't do it.

The bad part is that it puts me way behind on my Slotblog "duties"...

[Phil Smith]

Phil,

Yep, we can do that, but I gotta warn you it may not happen today. I'll be in SC all day tomorrow for our SERRA race and I have so much to do before I can leave, I probably won't even turn on the computer at home tonight.

Whenever you get time, Greg.

[Phil Smith]

That's right! I'm in no hurry. "..." What did you say? "..." No, no, no, I'm not trying to be a smartass! I'm serious. Take your time.

[Phil Smith]

Well...sloppy hinges inherently move in an infinite number of directions. In fact, it's impossible to make a sloppy hinge move in only one direction. So, if you allow sloppy hinges, how can you have the, "all hinged movements must be oriented in only one direction" rule? Those are two completely contradictory rules.

By the way, this is not about my chassis with the sloppy hinges being legal or not. I have other chassis ideas I like better at this point, so it makes no difference to me how you rule.

Seems like a legitimate question. Am I missing something?

[Noose]

It is Phil and sorry we haven't gotten back to you. Kinda tied up sorting things out for the next big race and the activity for Jay. I'll go beat on Greg. LOL.

[MSwiss]

Was some of the rhetoric on not ruling against sloppy hinges the inability to
tech worn brass tubing?

[Phil Smith]

It is Phil and sorry we haven't gotten back to you. Kinda tied up sorting things out for the next big race and the activity for Jay. I'll go beat on Greg. LOL.

Thanks, Noose! If you could rough Greg up a little I'd appreciate it.

[Phil Smith]

Was some of the rhetoric on not ruling against sloppy hinges the inability to
tech worn brass tubing?

Mike,

I remember that. I thought it had been decided that sloppy hinges were allowed, and all hinges (other than a drop arm) had to be orientated in the same direction. Direction of movement was not covered, because with sloppy hinges, movement in all directions had to be allowed. It was unavoidable.

But I was reading the rule wrong. It seems it actually never was resolved, resulting in two rules that contradict each other.

[Phil Smith]

Q: So if I built a chassis exactly like TonyP's, but I cut the pans out in the aero areas, and replaced those sections with aero-shaped Lexan pieces, that would be legal?

Or say I replaced the entire aero pan in Tony's chassis with Lexan, would that also be legal?

Or enclosed the entire bottom of the car with Lexan, is that legal?

A: Lexan is not on the list of approved materials for chassis construction. However there is no regulation that prohibits its use on a chassis in a non-structural manner. Constructing chassis pans from Lexan would probably not be legal, as pans normally are structural components.

(posted by Greg Wells for the IRRA board)

I'm learning the fine art of vagueness from Greg. Thanks for another lesson!

So Greg, apparently Lexan can be used, but only when it's not structural. Maybe it would be easier if you just told me how it can be used on a chassis. Can you cover the entire bottom of an already-complete chassis with it? Can you fill in the center section with it? What exactly can you do with it?

[Rick]

LMAO, Phil, it's their job to write the rules and stay vague and it's our position to work as creatively as we can within that and be just as vague. Heheheheheheh, Greg should be in Washington...

[Noose]

What exactly can you do with it?

Unofficial IRRA Answer: Umm... use it for a body?

[Phil Smith]

Rick,

You come up with a lot of original ideas that appear to be within the rules, and a lot of times they end up getting shot down. Well you're way more industrious than I am. A lot harder worker. Me? I'm lazy! I admit it. I don't want to build a chassis and find out it's illegal after the fact. I'd like to know what I can and can not do beforehand.

[Phil Smith]

Unofficial IRRA Answer: Umm... use it for a body?

LOL! Noose, I really wouldn't mind if that was the ruling, but TonyP talking about filling in the center section with whatever it was he was going to use, got me to thinking. There are things I'd like to try - if it's legal.

[Noose]

Tony can fill it with whatever he wants and then try to get it by the Tech Nazi. Seeing it's me here I will give him a resounding answer of "No race for you" (these are all Seinfeld excerpts now you realize). He will say why and I will say it's not in the spirit... then say "Dominos 2 bits and up".

He of course will say the same thing he has always said... "Well, I tried".

Now if it was Pete Von Ahrens...

[tonyp]

You are now outlawing tape? I intend to tape over the hole in the bottom of the chassis. No different than putting tape on the pans or lead on the bottom of the pans.

How about I cover the hole in the chassis with lead?

LOL...

[Cheater]

Rick, I thought you were my friend, but if you are wanting me to be in Washington, I may have to revise that opinion! 8-(

Phil, you're seemingly wanting yes or not answers to hypothetical questions. If you put a chassis in an IRRA tech director's hands, you will normally get yes or no answers. It's kinda hard to give hard-and-fast yes or no answers to what-if questions.

The answer given, which BTW was not entirely mine but rather was the answer the IRRA board came up with as a team, provides the guidance we wanted to give in response to your questions. And really, that's about all we can do without having a real chassis in our hands to inspect. If that means you interpret the answers as vague, so be it!

[Noose]

You are now outlawing tape? I intend to tape over the hole in the bottom of the chassis. No different than putting tape on the pans or lead on the bottom of the pans.

How about I cover the hole in the chassis with lead?

Ahh... I replaced your lead tape with good ol Joisey Cement Tape right from the Bada Bing.

[Cheater]

So Greg, apparently Lexan can be used, but only when it's not structural. Maybe it would be easier if you just told me how it can be used on a chassis. Can you cover the entire bottom of an already-complete chassis with it? Can you fill in the center section with it? What exactly can you do with it?

And my unofficial answer is that both of the uses you mention in the quote above would be fine, so long as the required chassis dimensions and clearances are observed.

As to what else you can do with Lexan on a chassis, I dunno. It's not something I've spent much time thinking about...

[Pablo]

I'd like to continue reminding y'all that, even though I'm a newbie, I saw the flaw in the IRRA/D3/Retro "hinge rule" the first time I read it. I KNEW this would be a continuing problem, and I'm just a little guy in the black hole. Whoever penned the hinge rules just wasn't thinking, and/or was in a hurry. Hence we have continual discussion and confusion. May I remind you non-military types, a sharp stroke of a scalpel makes a clean cut, whereas a dull knife makes a ragged wound that is very painful, easily infected, and takes a long time to heal. Why is it you have to be a 30 year slot car veteran to be heard? Dallas Racer plays the Devil's Advocate well, he just wants closure to the slop, hinge, pivot, shaker, plumber restrictions y'all have imposed. We want freedom! Let us build! How can I ever be a builder unless you allow me to experiment? Or maybe you want a dummy, who shows up to the races with $500 in his pocket every week and a four word vocabulary - frame, motor, body, controller. OK I can be that guy. I'll change my nickname to dummy. Don't hold your breath waiting for me to invent something new and better, I'll just keep trying to win by injecting steroids into my right index finger before the race.

[slotbaker]

Seems to me that the rules aren't that bad.

As far as the hinge/pivot "movement" goes, think about the rules relating to the centreline of the pin. That is fixed.
And I believe that is the direction that is being referred to, in the rules.
i.e. direction as in parallel with the car's axles or perpendicular to them, or ??

Yeah, sure the pin and hole have clearance which allows the assembly to move in all directions depending on how much clearance/slop there is.

How much slop is allowed??
It's been suggested that "just enough" to allow for propper function of the hinge/pivot. So this becomes the subjective bit that can be discussed till the cows come home. We rely on the tech inspector to be consistent here.

As far as people being lazy and not wanting to build a frame that turns out to be illegal, it seems that those people are spending so much time on mental gymnastics over the rules, they don't have the time to build the frame.

It's also been suggested before that if someone turns up with a new frame that is questionable, it would probably still be allowed to race at least once. So you would get to see what a rocket or pile it is.

So why not build the frame that you beleive the rules cover, see how it goes, if it jets then put it up for tech in a D3 race? If it's a pile, tinker on it as Tony P suggests, or build another.

[Pappy]

So Greg, apparently Lexan can be used, but only when it's not structural. Maybe it would be easier if you just told me how it can be used on a chassis. Can you cover the entire bottom of an already-complete chassis with it? Can you fill in the center section with it? What exactly can you do with it?

I believe section F of the chassis rules in Can-Am would state that Lexan can't be used to cover the entire chassis bottom.

Section F says: No part of the chassis, motor, gear or "other component" may hang "below" the main chassis rails.

I believe Lexan would come under "other component" which would also outlaw the lead tape being used under pans, that would put it below the main rails.

If memory serves me correctly we allowed slop in the hinges so they wouldn't freeze up. What was allowed or talked about was being able to use a .055" wire in a brass tube made for a .062" wire to give it just a little play. Same goes for forward and backward slop, just enough so it wouldn't bind. Maybe we should have explained it a little better in the rules.

[Rick]

Section F says: No part of the chassis, motor, gear or "other component" may hang "below" the main chassis rails

Whoa... this is going to get real good. I am getting some ice water and my scotch for the weekend...

[MSwiss]

As far as hinge slop goes, racers are free to have it. Regardless of what kind of movement is acheived by it, the hinge tubes have to be oriented in the same direction.

[Phil Smith]

How much slop is allowed??
It's been suggested that "just enough" to allow for propper function of the hinge/pivot.

I have no recollection of that. Where did you read that?

So this becomes the subjective bit that can be discussed til the cows come home. We rely on the tech inspector to be consistent here.

And that's the problem. It is subjective. That's why you and I have different understandings of what it is/should be. You may not agree with my interpretation, I don't agree with yours. Who's to say who's right when it's subjective?

If memory serves me correctly we allowed slop in the hinges so they wouldn't freeze up. What was allowed or talked about was being able to use a .055 wire in a brass tube made for a .062 wire to give it just a little play. Same goes for forward and backward slop, just enough so it wouldn't bind. Maybe we should have explained it a little better in the rules.

Again I don't recall that. Do you have a link to this?

As far as hinge slop goes, racers are free to have it. Regardless of what kind of movement is acheived by it,the hinge tubes have to be oriented in the same direction.

Now that's how I remembering it all panning out back when it was originally brought up months ago. I didn't realize until a couple of days ago that the rules didn't read as Mike interprets them.

I'm really confused by all of this. Did the rules get re-written at some point?