132 replies to this topic

[SlotStox#53]

 

 In the vintage world, things rarely fit right.  The best way to find the elusive (you understand that for sure) correct fitting parts is to amass a large quantity of them and at some point when you need something, you will have it. 

I'm finding out that very thing Pablo Can testify that you definitely need a large quantity of parts to have stuff to fit right & go together But I've only just scratched the surface !!

 

Some great advice Pablo &  good luck Charlie on your quest for your first motor build!

[Pablo]

By this time he has figured out endbells are the hardest things to find - they cooked most of 'em back in 1969     The cans are still easy to find.  The guy I'd love to strangle is the idiot who glued the endbells onto the cans of a big batch of vintage Muras with 1969 glue (the good stuff) and I ended up with them in an ebay auction.        I thought I had won the endbell lotto    Not.  Lots of chemical soaking, band aids, tool abuse, and cursing 

[Bill from NH]

If you didn't need vintage, the modern endbells from the like of Parma, Trinity, & Proslot fit the old 16D cans quite well.

[Pablo]

Good point, Bill   If he wanted to put a modern Pro Slot Speed FX D can EB on it, I could hook him right up, hardware and springs included. That would be easy.  Assuming the hoods lined up on the comm, and the spacing worked.

[Mark Johnson]

I ohmed that exact wind of arm from that gentleman in Wisconsin at .047 ohms per pole . Kinda stout . my best grp7 current arm ohms .028 ohms 

on a much shorter stack for comparison .

Mark

[CoastalAngler1]

I ohmed that exact wind of arm from that gentleman in Wisconsin at .047 ohms per pole . Kinda stout . my best grp7 current arm ohms .028 ohms 

on a much shorter stack for comparison .

Mark

 - I asked for it, feelin the getting it end of the equation...scary before the trigger is pulled!

Probably gonna use modern mags and a proslot endbell...  

Pablo - Thanks for the Harbor Freight coupon!

[Pablo]

You are welcome.  If you want a used ProSlot D EB with bushing and hardware + springs, just let me know, I have some ratholed here at The Man Cave, They didn't cost me a dime.  Special price for you :  0

[Gator Bob]

Charlie,

I recommend holding out and finding a Mura endbell for that Certus can and arm.

 

 Note: - When you pull the arm out of 'Mustard' remove any burs on the shaft before pulling the arm out or the gimbal bearing will come with it  Never to fit properly again  

 

 

here are some part #s for available D can stuff

 

 

[CoastalAngler1]

Thanks in advance Pablo - yes please...I'm dying a couple months now to hear the scream and she's getting modern mags, to heck with the goats.  

 

Harbor Freight Rocks!  exchanged for the right caliper, got free flashlight no charge, threw 20 off coupon and whalla!...crazy marketing   Then they got the % back no more $ - go figure - wow!...diamond steel cut off wheels (for mags) and micro drill bits (30 pc .5mm-3.0mm!!) both for the dremmel 

 

Great call Bob, I do remember my training about the shafts thru the bushings you gave.  I'm liking that ProfMotor bullet proof stuff, gonna get sum!  what do u think of the vintage arm MOT1691 for mustard w the french mags?  Does the bearing with plastic housing they have work in the blank endbell?  Hmmm...I could then make vintage bullet proof awesome endbells for my other toy cars. (Duh, finally it's sinking in)

 

I can swap out the PS endbell later when I aquire a mura part?  Not planning to run this thing hard or race it - this one's for fun and memories, it will come out infrequently for a few fast laps then back in the box.  Goat Rodeo v.2 coming soon...

 

Thanks!

Charlie

[Gator Bob]

 

 

 what do u think of the vintage arm MOT1691 for mustard w the french mags?  

 

Great vintage combo, with the stock endbell and French mags.

BTW: that looks like the arm I had in the R&C Cheetah. ..

Does the bearing with plastic housing they have work in the blank endbell?  Hmmm...I could then make vintage bullet proof awesome endbells for my other toy cars. (Duh, finally it's sinking in)

 

Bushing or open ball bearing for the white plastic Champion is sold separately and not shown on the list. They are on the site.

 

They work with all Mabuchi FT16D motors. 

 

[CoastalAngler1]

Thanks Bob!

 

 - you guys are awesome...I'm gonna be able to go back through some of my other vintage cars and work over their motors.

 

This lesson is invaluable to me.        I hope others get something out of it too!   

[CoastalAngler1]

New Questions: (basis - 2 motors both ft-16d type 2, one to be super scary fast, one just a hopped up smooth fast one) 

 

What kind/size springs will I need that fit over post protectors?  

 

Light, medium, heavy - spring selection depends on arm/mags?

 

When do you opt for shunted brushes?

 

Why would you put bearings in the endbell?  can?

 

Thanks for the help!

 

 

Side note slot car drag history: I once had a velociraptor bb in an outlaw 63 pro mod wrp c-10 drag car, did .610's in the 1/4 at 90 mph   - (alas the motor got changed to a PS big block and to this day she runs a deadly .875 every time)    When my box was full of drag cars, they always ran the number.    

[havlicek]

 

 

What kind/size springs will I need that fit over post protectors? 

 

Pretty much any modern spring.  As you may already have found out, the stock Mabuchi spring coils are too small.  Keep in mind that, as a spring is installed and the long leg is brought to the retainer, the coil will get a bit smaller as it wraps...so a spring that looks a little large without actually installing it will fit better.  By the same token, a spring that appears to fit nicely when not under tension may actually be bound up as you put it under tension by installing it.  The problem you get with some springs however is that the long leg is too short for the larger 26D and definitely the 36D motors.  The Koford conductive springs are aces...but too short, they would make GREAT retrofits for these motors if the long leg were a b it longer.  You can wind your own springs (I use .014" or sometimes .015" stainless steel guitar strings for this, and they work just dandy, but it takes some fiddling and practice to get them consistent and true).

 

 

 

Light, medium, heavy - spring selection depends on arm/mags?

 

There are different approaches/thoughts to this.  I believe that, in the old old days, light tension was considered best by a lot of people, and light springs will often result in higher RPMs and sometimes lower current draw (reduced drag on the com).  However, light springs can also allow spring bounce and some arcing (although a trued com should mitigate this problem).  Heavier springs will, of course, result in a more solid electrical contact between the brushes and the com, and help reduce arcing at high revs.  You can experiment with each motor and see (while watching the current consumption on a power supply's meter) what the particular motor likes...OR...you can just "fall back 10 yards and punt" by using medium-weighted springs.

 

 

 

When do you opt for shunted brushes?

 

Shunts do at least two things:

1)Make sure the motor isn't starved for current because the hardware can't or isn't carrying enough to the commutator and providing a direct path from the lead wires to the com.

 

2)Reduce heat at the end bell hardware by not letting all that current pass through it (electricity will generally follow the path of least resistance)

Both of the above will happen to a greater degree with hot winds, so you're probably safe to not use shunts with motors running a #28 or lighter wind.  ***Improperly installed shunts can "hang up" the brushes and as they wear start to allow commutator-burning arcing.  On some end bells, space is pretty tight and shunts can also cause dead-shorts against the can if they're too long and/or get moved around.

 

 

 

Why would you put bearings in the endbell?  can?

 

If you are going to use bearings and only on one end, it's probably good to put them on the "driven" end (whether it's the can or the end bell) because lateral force caused by gear engagement (especially with a "too tight" setup).  Bearings on both ends can't hurt and a lot of builders figure..."if I'm going to put all this effort into building a great motor, I may as well install bearings".  There used to be (beats me if this is still the case) the idea that bearings can kill a motor's brakes, and my thought is, if your car's brakes depend on motor friction...you're in trouble.    Of course, some motors can't accept a bearing (for example many of the Mabuchi and early Mura D motors don't have the room on the end bell bushing carrier strap, so that takes the guesswork out of the equation.  In the case of a rebuild that needs to be correct for a period, it may not have been the way a particular motor was done "back then" (?).  ***In general, bearings reduce friction and wear (a bushing will get sloppy and out of round over time) and that means a better/cooler running motor.  Bearings are also more forgiving of a slight misalignment between the end bell and the can because of the way they are built and function.  Nice tight bushings in a well-built motor run beautifully and solid bronze bushings as opposed to sintered metal ("Oilite") bushings will last a long time is properly maintained.

 

-john

[CoastalAngler1]

Thanks John!  

 

What kind - double overhead, parma 500, ProSlot, Champion?

 

CoastalAngler knows stainless single strand wire leader, Malin is my favorite...#5 wire = 44lb. test = .014, #6 wire = 58lb. test = .016...I can tie a haywire knot and end it smooth with my fingers up to 124 lb. #10 wire, and regularly attach wire to mono without a swivel using an albright knot.  

 

Gonna look up the training, I remember seeing it!

[Gator Bob]

Charlie,

You are using the small brushes and the big Champion post protectors?

If so....Try the 4 coil Camen Heavy after breaking it in with Champion 3 coil lights.

[Pablo]

After digging in my vintage "box of horrors" for a Mura D endbell for Charlie, I was shocked - a dry well.  Not a single one left in there   Thanks to my mentor, Bill from NH, for reminding us that modern "D" size Pro Slot, Trinity, and Parma endbells will fit vintage D cans.  Folks, until "Charlie the Tuna" (he has a great sense of humor so I can mess with him ) finds an elusive Mura endbell for his Certus can and arm, I have volunteered to build and blueprint him a custom Parma 501 Deathstar endbell.  My plan is, the basic 501 black EB with a new Parma bushing JB Welded/press fit into place, combined with Mura hardware, ProSlot springs and brushes, etc.  It's going to be a unique item and require some fiddling of course.....the world's first Parma/Mura hybrid endbell   In the end, who knows, he may like it so much he just leaves it.  We shall see.....

Charlie, you ask a lot of good questions (must be a doggone fisherman)   

  "What kind/size springs will I need that fit over post protectors?"   

"Light, medium, heavy - spring selection depends on arm/mags?"

"When do you opt for shunted brushes?"

"Why would you put bearings in the endbell?  can?"

Charlie, this is really easy for me - I 100% concur with everything John H said.

I don't disagree with what Gator Bob said, but without having the motor parts in front of him it's tough to say, use exactly this or that springs n parts.  He suggests breaking it in with a certain spring, then using a heavier spring to run it ?  Sounds counterproductive to me.  I don't always agree with John or Gator Bob or anybody else.  Heck, look at FK motors, the directions on the package clearly state "DO NOT RUN THIS MOTOR IN UNDERWATER"   At the end of the day, it's your motor and you make the decisions.

-The springs I'm planning to provide to you along with the 501 EB and Gold Dust brushes are modern Pro Slot Speed FX springs, big enough to fit over post protectors, medium strength 90 degree. They will work on this motor. I'm not a "textbook smart" motor guy - I can't even work a meter - but I just know from experience they will be right.  Like the man said, when they are pre-radiused, it doesn't take strong springs to get that perfectly eliptical brush face to kiss that comm.

-With a double 60T 27/28 arm you are right on the borderline of traditional thinking on shunts needed or not needed. How high is the timing ?  I'm guessing here, but if it's about 35 or less you may be able to skip shunts. If 35 or more, like really twisted, you would probably benefit from shunts.  In the end, it would all boil down to putting it in a car and running a few laps then feel the temp. If she is hot, shunts may help, assuming the heat is not caused by other problems.  If she runs just warm only, and can maintain that for 30 laps or so, I'd forget shunts. If it was my motor, I'd try no shunts first.  Those 26D brushes with integral shunts you showed on page one are way too small for the man sized hoods I'm going to install on this EB .........if you are to install shunts it will be a custom deal with tweaked slots on the brushes and notches cut in the hoods....today would be a good time for you to get other people's opinions and make a decision here....if it's going to be a shunt job, just let me know, I'll do what needs to be done.

-The 501 EB has a fresh new bushing in it and it's aligned absolutely perfect.  I could have put a BB in it, but the design with bushing is so perfect as is, why mess with it ?  Again, I concur with all John said.  "Nature of the beast" in this case, the motor will HAVE to be a can drive with the 501 EB,  therefore, in theory, a BB would be preferable in the can because that is the load stressed end nearest the gears.  BUT, it probably already has a new, well aligned, stock bushing in it, right ? If so, I'd just leave it.  If the Certus can currently has no bushing, I would absolutely install a BB.  This is exactly what John said.

Now, where did I put that box of doggone Mura hardware ? 

[Bill from NH]

I offer a couple additional thoughts.

 

1.) If you plan to run this Certus motor on commercial tracks, learn how to put shunt wires on. If the tracks have only moderate power pack power, they'll help.

 

2.) Contrary to what some think, ball bearings are a maintenance item, not a speed item. Properly aligned oilite bushings work just fine, but they wear out sooner, so you'll have to replace them more often. Endbell bushings are almost always self-centering.

[SlotStox#53]

I hate going to the parts vault/cave/box of horrors and you haven't got what ya need ! My case it's I haven't purchased/collected enough goodies

I take it the man sized brush hoods you are mentioning are the big foot 2 kind? As that's all I've ever known as "Mura" hardware/hoods.

Good job using the 501 black endbell Pablo, it will look like the rare Champion 525 (or was it 535??) Endbell that Philippe has mentioned before.

Which reading is perfect for this period of Charlies motor can/arm

[CoastalAngler1]

When I fish on someone's else's boat in their fishing hole, I do what they say - THANKS Sir Pablo!!  Your decision.  Bill from NH likes shunts...

 

Timing? (pic) 10-15 degrees?

 

 

 

I don't always run on commercial tracks, but when I do, I wear shunts...

 

(the 26d cobra shunts are the only ones I've ever held, still clueless but learning from the best)

 

 

Both cans got heavier today.  no glue yet.  

 

Mustard - had to flatten the mag tabs, then the french mags fit excellent.  love that groove down the middle of the mags and the one spring clip.  Found a cool vintage Rehco arm, in the mail.  The mags are definitely stronger than the mabuchi ones with the endbell and orig arm re-inserted for finger spin.

 

Certus - the modern mags and clips from a parma 16d fit well enough, but not real tight, definately will need gluing.

Unfortunately no tools for centering - any tips? 

Any gluing tips?

[CoastalAngler1]

right and left mags??? 

B)

[CoastalAngler1]

yes Pablo, certus can stock bearing.  small OD  protruding, size like a russkit 22, hmmmm, now i gotta drill/tap/solder, yikes?  I got this, new to me but can do, damm goats!  However this thing gets mounted it will have to be solid.  

 

Measurements for the can drilling?  I'd like to use modern motor screws? (hex head)

[Bill from NH]

For centering, wrap a  spare arm with some tape (plastic, electrical, masking, it doesn't matter) until you get some resistance  when you push it between the magnets. Now your taped arm is centered & so will be your can bushing/bearing location.

 

I would expect any open class arm from the 70's & early 80's to have 10-20 de3grees of timing, even the hand wound ones.

 

Some people talk proper left & right magnet locations. I don't, because I don't care which magnet goes where. I have an old zapper & it will reverse-polarize any ceramic magnets I have come across. My final step is to magnetize any setup so my leadwires don't have to be crossed. Motors won't run any better with leadwires run straight, but all my motors are wired the same way.

 

For motor mounting screws, drill & tap for 2-56 machine screws.  2-56 hex head allen screws are available. The self-tapping hex heads like Parma uses makes a mess & tears things up. Eventually, they won't hold anything.

[Pablo]

I assume that is the Certus arm pictured ? Yup, that's got some hi timing all right, looks like at least 30 degrees. I'll set the EB hardware and brushes up for shunts, and when I send it I'll include some shunt wire and insulation.  I'll also send a couple different types of screws to attach it to the can, so you can chose which type you like. My personal favorites are those little black ones (Koford ?) that fit a standard wheel wrench. I wouldn't recommend drilling any holes until you have the EB in your hands.  Otherwise you would only be guessing where to drill.  If you don't already have one, you need a mini twist drill bit set.

 

Don't glue those magnets in there until you have the completed EB in hand !!!  Otherwise, how are you going to know where to position them to make the arm sit in it's happy place centered in the magnetic field?  Answer:  you don't.  As far as centering and spacing the magnets for both correct airgap hole size, you need an armature slug.  For your .510 OD arm, since you are using D can magnets which typically work well with big airgaps, I would use a .540 slug.  Anybody doubts if a small arm will work well with a big hole in a D can with D mags,  just ask Danny Zona.  Bill's method with a dummy arm will work in a pinch but just make sure those mags are where you want 'em before you glue 'em.  The link I sent you on the tutorial for C can builds covers all this in detail, you need to read it, especially regarding to to set the mags up and have the slug pop out after the glue sets.  If the mags are a snug fit with the hole size you want, krazy glue works fine.  If you need to have the mags approach the arm a few thou, JB Weld or Koford mag epoxy is better, because it's thicker.

 

L/R mags ? Like Bill said, it matters not in the end because the timing is what decides arm rotation.  In this case, you have a clockwise at can end arm.  Whichever way the mags go, after the motor is assembled, you would just hook the wires up to make it run CW at can end.  The polarity changes by either swapping magnet sides, or rotating the EB 180 degrees. NOW,  having said that, it actually DOES matter, because there is probably a notch in that can to provide more clearance from the axle; also however the EB hardware ends up being oriented is going to become a factor.  What are ya gonna do if the notch ends up being on the wrong side and the hardware ends up in a position you can't fit lead wires on it ?  Don't glue those mags in until we figure this out together.  Once the EB is set up, and you show me better pics of the can showing the notch (or lack of) only then will you know what side which mag needs to go on.  Cool ?  Get a small magnetic compass, you are gonna need it when the time comes.

 

You said the can has a bearing but I've never seen a can from 1969 come stock with a bearing. Are you sure you don't mean bushing ? I need good pics of that can to figure out what's going on, please

 

Don't Krazy glue or drill anything until I get this EB situation rolling, Bunky. 

[Bill from NH]

Post #14 has good inside & outside the can photos. While it's not a convential 6 mm bushing, it does appear to be a quality item. If it were me, I'd keep it.

 

 

The only Certus slot racing product I've ever owned was a tube of Certus Eutectic Solder for chassis building. I found out years later that it's just 63/37 rosin core solder.

[Pablo]

Thanks Bill, I forgot those pics, yes, Charlie, if the Certus bushing is new and not sloppy, by all means leave it as is.

You aren't going to be racing the Pro Nats every weekend with it, are you ?    It is probably aligned perfect and it will last a long time.

I don't see a notch for the axle in those pics, but can you confirm that, Charlie ? If there is no notch, and both sides have the exact same cutouts and cooling holes, it makes no difference which mag goes on what side.  What will matter is which way the EB is installed - you can work on that later.