Rails attached per rules, close-up shows attachment to motor bracket.
Legal chassis?
Started by
The Number of
, Mar 06 2017 11:04 AM
-
This topic is locked
26 replies to this topic
#1
The Number of
-
- Guest
-
- 1,692 posts Joined: 29-February 08
Checkered Flag in Hand
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:04 AM
- Tater likes this
Bill Fulmer
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
#2
Noose
-
- IRRA National Director
-
- 23,320 posts Joined: 08-November 06
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
- Location:Denville, NJ
Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:13 AM
IMO no since if all else was removed that structure would not support the car.
- JerseyJohn likes this
Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.
#3
MSwiss
-
- IRRA National Director
-
- 25,920 posts Joined: 16-April 06
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:18 AM
Bill,
What thickness is that rail?
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#4
mppicione
-
- Full Member
-
- 167 posts Joined: 18-October 11
Mid-Pack Racer
- Gender:Male
- Location:Frankford, Delaware
Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:20 AM
Looks nice!!!! Good luck.
Marc Picione
#5
Cap Henry
-
- Subscriber
-
- 3,372 posts Joined: 25-October 08
CHR Cars
- Gender:Male
- Location:Bellevue, OH
Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:32 AM
What rule doesn't it meet? There's no rule saying if you picture it without everything else it has to support itself. That's not a partial rail on top of brass plate, so it doesn't have to meet the .047 minimum. So unless there's a rule I missed it's legal.
Definitely creative and knew that was going to happen at some point LOL
Definitely creative and knew that was going to happen at some point LOL
- brnursebmt, JHMerriman and The Number of like this
#6
The Number of
-
- Guest
-
- 1,692 posts Joined: 29-February 08
Checkered Flag in Hand
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:34 AM
What thickness is that rail?
.023". But that makes no difference if I read the rules correctly.
Bill Fulmer
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
#7
The Number of
-
- Guest
-
- 1,692 posts Joined: 29-February 08
Checkered Flag in Hand
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:51 AM
IMO no since if all else was removed that structure would not support the car.
I like my cars flexible.
- Jason Holmes likes this
Bill Fulmer
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
#8
MSwiss
-
- IRRA National Director
-
- 25,920 posts Joined: 16-April 06
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:01 PM
"An additional restriction being imposed is that bracing or partial rails soldered atop brass plate to "complete" a main rail structure can be no smaller than .047" diameter."
Since there are no other legal main rails, effectively, that .023" wire qualifies as the bracing, that makes the chassis illegal, and falls under the .047" minimum rule.
IOW it's the only thing that completes a main rail structure, so it has to be .047" minimum.
Since there are no other legal main rails, effectively, that .023" wire qualifies as the bracing, that makes the chassis illegal, and falls under the .047" minimum rule.
IOW it's the only thing that completes a main rail structure, so it has to be .047" minimum.
- JerseyJohn likes this
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#9
Half Fast
-
- Subscriber
-
- 2,628 posts Joined: 02-May 07
Keeper Of Odd Knowledge
- Gender:Male
- Location:NYC, Long Island
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:09 PM
Mike don't you mean illegal, not legal?
- The Number of likes this
Bill Botjer
Faster then, wiser now.
The most dangerous form of ignorance is not knowing that you don't know anything!
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
#10
The Number of
-
- Guest
-
- 1,692 posts Joined: 29-February 08
Checkered Flag in Hand
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:11 PM
The .023" rail is solid from motor bracket to nosepiece so it meets the requirements of the rules as a main rail not bracing?
Bill Fulmer
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
#11
Eddie Fleming
-
- Subscriber
-
- 2,940 posts Joined: 27-April 14
Posting Leader
- Gender:Male
- Location:Fayetteville, GA USA
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:12 PM
This is becoming a game of beating the rule rather than good building practices.
- MSwiss likes this
Eddie Fleming
#12
MSwiss
-
- IRRA National Director
-
- 25,920 posts Joined: 16-April 06
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:16 PM
That .023" wire is the main rail structure.
Where does it say the structure has to be multiple pieces?
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#13
The Number of
-
- Guest
-
- 1,692 posts Joined: 29-February 08
Checkered Flag in Hand
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:20 PM
This is becoming a game of beating the rule rather than good building practices.
Being involved in the tech inspection end of many races all I am attempting to do is close a loophole. Not trying to circumvent the rules but clarify.
- Danny Zona likes this
Bill Fulmer
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
#14
MSwiss
-
- IRRA National Director
-
- 25,920 posts Joined: 16-April 06
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:21 PM
This is becoming a game of beating the rule rather than good building practices.
Correct.
Adding 2 short pieces of .047" wire to the pictured chassis, to the outer rails, doesn't create any "hardship" to the racer, and they can still leave on that .023" wire if the feel it is a handling benefit.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#15
The Number of
-
- Guest
-
- 1,692 posts Joined: 29-February 08
Checkered Flag in Hand
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:23 PM
That .023" wire is the main rail structure.
Where does it say the structure has to be multiple pieces?
Sorry, Mike, I am not getting your point here, a lifttke confused.
Bill
Bill Fulmer
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
#16
Half Fast
-
- Subscriber
-
- 2,628 posts Joined: 02-May 07
Keeper Of Odd Knowledge
- Gender:Male
- Location:NYC, Long Island
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:26 PM
So the chassis as pictured in post#1 is:
1- Legal
2-Illlegal
Which one?
1- Legal
2-Illlegal
Which one?
- The Number of likes this
Bill Botjer
Faster then, wiser now.
The most dangerous form of ignorance is not knowing that you don't know anything!
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
#17
MSwiss
-
- IRRA National Director
-
- 25,920 posts Joined: 16-April 06
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:28 PM
Bill F,
What else is the legal main rail structure?
There are no other ones.
It sounds like you just want us to reword the rule.
What else is the legal main rail structure?
There are no other ones.
It sounds like you just want us to reword the rule.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#18
The Number of
-
- Guest
-
- 1,692 posts Joined: 29-February 08
Checkered Flag in Hand
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:31 PM
Again just looking to close what I see as a loophole in the rules. Nothing personal or anti-IRRA®.
- Danny Zona likes this
Bill Fulmer
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!
#19
Cap Henry
-
- Subscriber
-
- 3,372 posts Joined: 25-October 08
CHR Cars
- Gender:Male
- Location:Bellevue, OH
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:42 PM
I understand Bill's point.
The way the rules are written now, there is only a minimum rail size if the wire is multiple pieces and it's a brace on top of brass sheet. That is not multiple pieces or on top of brass sheet, it's sole purpose is connecting the front and back.
Would that rail support the car on its own? No. But that's not a rule that it has to. Bill is pointing out a very obvious loophole that I tried pointing out too.
The way the rules are written now, there is only a minimum rail size if the wire is multiple pieces and it's a brace on top of brass sheet. That is not multiple pieces or on top of brass sheet, it's sole purpose is connecting the front and back.
Would that rail support the car on its own? No. But that's not a rule that it has to. Bill is pointing out a very obvious loophole that I tried pointing out too.
#20
MSwiss
-
- IRRA National Director
-
- 25,920 posts Joined: 16-April 06
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:45 PM
Bill, Cap,
An additional restriction being imposed is that bracing or partial rails soldered atop brass plate to "complete" a main rail structure can be no smaller than .047" diameter.
So it sounds like you want us to add "or the main rail itself" to the the above passage, because you don't consider your single .023" rails as the main rail structure, in our wording.
I do, as there are no other legal main rails.
You might want to straighten out THIS seller on eBay while you are at it. LOL.
An additional restriction being imposed is that bracing or partial rails soldered atop brass plate to "complete" a main rail structure can be no smaller than .047" diameter.
So it sounds like you want us to add "or the main rail itself" to the the above passage, because you don't consider your single .023" rails as the main rail structure, in our wording.
I do, as there are no other legal main rails.
You might want to straighten out THIS seller on eBay while you are at it. LOL.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#21
Eddie Fleming
-
- Subscriber
-
- 2,940 posts Joined: 27-April 14
Posting Leader
- Gender:Male
- Location:Fayetteville, GA USA
Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:52 PM
To me the very name main rail states that it is the primary connecting and strength structure of the chassis. In this case that is certainly not the case. That makes the small wire bracing and not main rails.
Eddie Fleming
#22
Phil Hackett
-
- Advertiser
-
- 5,702 posts Joined: 29-January 07
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
- Location:Formerly Aerospace Central
#23
Cheater
-
- Root Admin
-
- 25,709 posts Joined: 14-February 06
Headmaster of the asylum
- Gender:Male
- Location:Norcross, GA
Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:00 PM
I believe what Bill wants us to do is to specify a minimum main rail diameter, which I feel we cannot do as there are too many building multi-piece mail rails out of fairly small diameter wire.
- 911GT3 likes this
Gregory Wells
Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap
#24
Cap Henry
-
- Subscriber
-
- 3,372 posts Joined: 25-October 08
CHR Cars
- Gender:Male
- Location:Bellevue, OH
Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:02 PM
Why the need to make this personal? No one is attacking the IRRA® or any of the BoD.
You could just as easily put a piece of .023" flat, not on top of any brass sheet, and have it go into notches in the nose piece, and then still have the other rails and it is technically a legal car. Is it nit-picking? Yes. But it's still a possibility that can be done and currently legal. Then it becomes up to the tech guy as to what is perceived as legal. Bill simply wants to eliminate the perception issue.
If a main rule minimum diameter is the answer, IMO it needs to read more like the rails combined diameter/width needs to exceed .062" or maybe more. Saying minimum of .047" eliminates all the .039/.032" wire cars.
- Cheater and Tom Thumb Hobbies like this
#25
MSwiss
-
- IRRA National Director
-
- 25,920 posts Joined: 16-April 06
Grand Champion Poster
- Gender:Male
Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:07 PM
Would that rail support the car on its own? No. But that's not a rule
Go to the first sentence of the fourth paragraph, in the below thread, where we address legality issues with this new chassis.
IRRA® chassis main rail construction clarification
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
