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Can-Am racing In Europe


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#51 MSwiss

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 08:56 PM

Slot racing could have an org like model railroading does, and model railroading could be rudderless, arguing on Railblog, whether steam or diesel was the way to go, and model railroading would still be bigger.

Like I've said before, a lot of car enthusiasts are racing real cars, where very few train enthusiasts have real trains.

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#52 Cheater

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:02 PM

Not sure what your point is, Mike.

And who mentioned model railroading? Is that only hobby/LTA you compared to slots?

Are you suggesting that in, say, the last 40-50 years, there were more people interested in railroads than cars? Or that there are more people interested in railroading today than are interested in cars?

Don't think there would be a lot of solid data to support that opinion...

Please understand that I don't believe slots can recover from the malaise it is currently in. It's too late for 'trearment'...

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#53 MSwiss

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:10 PM

Forget it.

I wouldn't have bit on your broken record except I have two minutes between each heat while race directing.

Mike Swiss
 
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#54 Cheater

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:13 PM

Like I've said before, a lot of car enthusiasts are racing real cars, where very few train enthusiasts have real trains.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

My belief is that only a very, very small percentage of car enthusiasts "are racing real cars."

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#55 Bill from NH

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:14 PM

Locally, the Manchester train shop closed its doors a couple years before the last NH commercial raceway did. The train shop had a longer history, but wasn't any more stable than a raceway. It's always been my opinion that Internet buying can kill a train shop more easily than it will a raceway.

Of course there are always exceptions to everything except death and gravity. :)

Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#56 spudboy

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:53 PM

I really dig these cars and I have been curious to try them for a long time but I know, at my raceway (and I suspect in my entire region), that there would be almost nobody interested enough in these cars to build and race them.  Everyone would say "Cool!" and then race their flexi or retro car.

 

Think about it in terms of the Retro scene, how many racers use a McLaren, Lola or Chaparral body because it is cool, neat or exciting?  ALMOST none.  It's all Ti22 because THAT is what wins.  And it isn't just Ti22, it's the RIGHT Ti22 mold.  Then, how many guys would insist that their car resemble the original upon which it is based?  Nearly all only care that the body be colorful/visible at speed.  Who among us will put hours into preparing a model race car to the level of detail these fellas have done?

 

For several years I paid attention to what was going on internationally in model car racing but the scene seems to have shrunk in the last several years.

 

All of the work from Niels, Fola, Tamar (to name only a few!) is very inspiring.  It respects auto-racing history and rewards modeling skills.  The Euro tracks appear to be far more accommodating of these cars too.

 

Ah well.  A very different scene.  Glad to see people doing this.  Good luck fellas!

 

Thanks for sharing these wonderful photos.


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#57 bbr

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 10:24 PM

The USA commercial raceway is a dying art form (enjoy it while it last). While the “model car” racing genre seem to be more stable.

 

The USA commercial raceway system has a steep learning curve for most people that may have any interest in the hobby.

 

The “model car” racing is more accessible.


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#58 NSwanberg

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:18 AM

Also, I also believe the European attitude about racing slot cars is a lot different than ours in the US. I am told they drive as if deslotting is the worst sin in the world.
 
One BSCRA racer told me years ago that one deslot would seriously impact one's chances of winning the race and that two would completely eliminate them.


Nothing is worth a deslot. Ever!
 
If you can't beat them on the track then beat them with a marshal. :)
 
At last night's races Bob Faster came up with an idea I had never heard. Crash and burn with a buck buy-back into the race. You could put the buy backs into a purse.
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#59 Bill from NH

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 06:32 AM

Why would you want to pay extra money when you're not going to win the race anyway? :to_become_senile:


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#60 NSwanberg

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 08:31 AM

After you pay your buck, you 'unburn' and get back into the race.


Remember the Steube bar!
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RACEWAY!!
"The denial of denial is the first sign of denial." Hank, from Corner Gas
Nelson Swanberg

Peace be with all of us and good racing for the rest of us.
Have controller. Will travel. Slot Car Heaven

#61 Tex

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 09:42 AM

Why would you want to pay extra money when you're not going to win the race anyway? :to_become_senile:

 

'cause playing with slot cars is fun(?)


Richard L. Hofer

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#62 Bill from NH

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 09:52 AM

I was never a big fan of crash & burn racing. I'm not willing to spend additional money to see how much fun it is. if others want to, go ahead. :laugh2:


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#63 Dennis David

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 10:28 AM

The whole idea about marshaling is an argument that can't be won. I do think that there should be a greater penalty for deslotting however.

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#64 bbr

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 12:37 PM

Marshall is always the culprit... He never puts the car back on fast enough for the racer that falls off...lol
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#65 Samiam

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:11 PM

Even with the fastest marshal you will still lose at least 2 sec. That can be half a lap. I came up with the 2 sec from watching qualifying. One off cost the car a min. of 2 sec for that lap. That's with one car on one lane. A three car pile up with one on the floor can cost you a lap and a half. 


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#66 MSwiss

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:32 PM

Marshall is always the culprit... He never puts the car back on fast enough for the racer that falls off...lol

I'll argue the "never".

 

My best Wednesday night racer (out of the slot 0-2 times a race, yesterday 1 time) is also the quickest marshal.

 

No one ever groans when he marshals a car, and he, and others, gets complimented by both me, and the other racers, when they do a good job.


Mike Swiss
 
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#67 MSwiss

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:40 PM

Even with the fastest marshal you will still lose at least 2 sec. That can be half a lap. I came up with the 2 sec from watching qualifying. One off cost the car a min. of 2 sec for that lap. That's with one car on one lane. A three car pile up with one on the floor can cost you a lap and a half. 

I study marshaling times, also, and 2 seconds is about right.

 

At the Sano, I sometimes keep track of fastest times with a come-off.

 

High 6's is pretty average for a quick marshal job, but I've seen high 5.8's, which would have you at about a 1.3 marshal job.

 

Those are in the lead-on, where there isn't any reaching down.

 

On the Fiedler Flat, which is table height, all the way around, I marshal hardbodies in the low 1's, regularly.


Mike Swiss
 
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#68 gc4895

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:56 PM

Why is it that when the guy on red comes out and parks in my lane and I come around and hit him, then the turn Marshall picks up my car with his left hand then while reaching to pick up the original deslotted car yet another car hits him and deslots which he picks up and reslots with his right hand. Then, at last he picks up and returns to the slot the original offender while all the while I remain firmly in the grasp of his left hand. Now, after all this has gone on, at long last, with his left hand my car gets returned to the track. Sorry for the long story but I either enjoy this happen to me or watch it happen all the time. You just gotta love it!
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#69 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 02:13 PM

Mark I have had times when like you said the guy in red comes off and I stop before I hit him in order to go no after the first car is cleared and the marshal picks up my car and holds it like you said. Hay he was doing the best he could. Sometimes I am just glad to have turn marshals.


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#70 Dennis David

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 02:21 PM

I would rather the marshal handle one car at a time and NOT be lightning fast. Too many deslots in many of the races we have.

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#71 Samiam

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 02:24 PM

Why is it that when the guy on red comes out and parks in my lane and I come around and hit him, then the turn Marshall picks up my car with his left hand then while reaching to pick up the original deslotted car yet another car hits him and deslots which he picks up and reslots with his right hand. Then, at last he picks up and returns to the slot the original offender while all the while I remain firmly in the grasp of his left hand. Now, after all this has gone on, at long last, with his left hand my car gets returned to the track. Sorry for the long story but I either enjoy this happen to me or watch it happen all the time. You just gotta love it!


You're lucky the guy remembered he still had your car in his left hand. It seems with more states legalizing medical/recreational marijuana :smoking: , marshaling has taken on an almost comical routine.
 
I had been taken out from four lanes away by a pile of cars from the inside of the deadman. The marshal literally had his hands full. Of course my car went on last. In the wrong lane! Rider into the 90 wall. Car is done :hang3: . Oh... BTW, first lap. :dash2:


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#72 Benno - SAC

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 03:22 PM

Hi all,

 

Greg, after the following discusison... now I understand your statement :D .

 

Marshaling in the right order: believe me, exactly the same in Germany and I believe, all around the world :D :D .

 

So now how about... back to topic? :D :D :D

 

Here is a LINK to the "right" German forum, where I asked for the event. There are a few new pics in it.


Schöne Grüße (Kind regards)

Benno Stolberg

 

www.SAC-Stolberg.de


#73 Cheater

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 03:31 PM

Yes, we have drifted this topic pretty severely and for that I apologize, both for myself and for others.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#74 Benno - SAC

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 03:41 PM

Oh, I don't dislike thread drifts, as long as they do not end up in endless discussions :) . (I drifted, too.)


Schöne Grüße (Kind regards)

Benno Stolberg

 

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#75 Dennis David

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 04:07 PM

Greg, you should be ashamed of yourself. LOL One of the main sources for bodies is Fein-Design-Modell. These chassis maybe one step below Slotfabrik.

Personally at 180 grams I might like a 30-40K motor but that's only because I've been infected by speed crazed morons that I race with here. ;-) Alao I might have concours after the race with points deducted for race damage. Ouch! I hope to visit one of these Euro tracks next month.

Looks like Niederberg is just outside of Koblentz.


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#76 sportblazer350

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 09:06 AM

​I really enjoy this type of racing. I too have been watching these German/Euro posts for a few years now. I like what and how they race. That is why my favorite type of slot car racing now is the Hardbody series at The Race Place in Farmingdale, NJ USA.
 
We race scale model cars: 1/24 scale plastic model kits with scale brass chassis, wheels/tires, 26K motors. So our cars are similar to what is raced in Germany, but not to the degree of detail nor performance. That is why I also liked racing Scaleauto 1/24 hardbody cars. I am one who does understand and believe that the "slot car hobby" encompasses all things related to slot cars: building, collecting, and racing. whether it be serious racing or for fun (hey - can't we do both at the same time: race and have fun??!!), any and all scales, from HO to 1/24, wing cars to scale model race cars. Racing today's 1/32 plasticars is also another form of hardbody scale racing that is enjoyable.
 
To me, I think that hardbody scale model car racing, if organized, can bring much needed life into this hobby at commercial raceways. I know that this type of racing is not for everyone, especially if speed is your only desire. I find the same at the radio controlled plane club: some like 3D flying with planes that are nowhere near scale, while others like to relax with their detailed scale planes. But in that hobby, everyone respects what the other flyer is doing and enjoys. If we slot car enthusiasts could only embrace the overall hobby, meaning that this hobby is not only about racing, and racing as fast as possible, and give everyone involved the support to help keep it alive.
 
I started in this hobby back around 1970, when I got bored with HO scale trains and I discovered slot car racing at commercial raceways and at hobby shops. The Aurora Thunderjet HO cars and home tracks is what got me started, and I still enjoy both old and new HO cars today as well. For a few years I was part of a vintage slot car club and we actually raced 1/24 scale real vintage mid 1960s cars, and had a blast! I was really surprised that more vintage slot car enthusiasts did not join in to race with us, as I know there are a lot of collectors out there - just look at eBay and all that is being bought and sold.      
 
​And to keep on topic here - I would really like to see this type of racing here in the USA. With all of the plastic model kits available, both new and old, and lots of different scale chassis makers to choose from, there is no limit to the types of cars to build, race and enjoy. Oh yeah - and to have fun doing so!


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NJ SCALE Racing

Hardbody Racing at The Race Place


#77 Cheater

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 09:30 AM

If we slot car enthusiasts could only embrace the overall hobby, meaning that this hobby is not only about racing, and racing as fast as possible...


If only... sigh.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#78 SlotStox#53

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 01:01 PM

Cars are absolutely gorgeous.  :heart:

Just like the realism of the 1966 Rod & Custom series racers :D Just with modern chassis and hardbodies.

How fast slot/model cars go and how fast you drive them is all relative. Personally it's just a case of what you're used to and drive 'em like you stole it!!

Whether it's a Hawk Retro, multi-mag open, 20K Slot.it, period rewind, and anything else in between you bolt it in a car and drive it as smooth, steady, and as fast as you can!

All equally fun and enjoyable whatever the scale, just because of all the model detail and hardbody doesn't mean the cars are slow, need to be driven carefully, or any less fun than anything else.

Bring on some Can-Am Thunder series over here.  :D


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#79 MSwiss

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 05:03 PM

If only... sigh.

 

Uh-oh.

The "This is the way you should be enjoying slot racing" police is on the prowl. LOL.


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Mike Swiss
 
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#80 Bill from NH

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 06:26 PM

Some of the "True Scale" home/club groups in Oregon run cars that will rival these. Perhaps other parts of the country have them too.


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#81 Mattb

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 07:03 PM

Bill,

 

I don't think I've seen anything that nice and scale in America. The guys at MESAC hit that level. All the pictures I've seen of their cars are very nice, but they must have relaxed their rules about tires, as a lot of cars I've seen have small out of scale tires.


Matt Bishop

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#82 Bill from NH

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:11 PM

Matt, look at some of the Rosebud, OR race reports that James Wendel or Rich Vecchio have on here. Their cars are pretty nicely detailed. I don't know what their tire rules are right offhand, but I don't think they allow small diameters such as MESAC did.  Todd Messinger,, a former MESAC racer, now races at Pelican Park Speedway in Eugene, OR.


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#83 MSwiss

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:43 PM

Bill,I don't think I've seen anything that nice and scale in America. The guys at MESAC hit that level. All the pictures I've seen of their cars are very nice, but they must have relaxed their rules about tires, as a lot of cars I've seen have small out of scale tires.

 

Some of the "True Scale" home/club groups in Oregon run cars that will rival these. Perhaps other parts of the country have them, too.

 

No offense to any US racing groups, but I have to agree with Matt.
 
I've haven't seen anything, recently, that can rival something like the #16 cars, below.
 
post-29-0-35897200-1491315446.jpg


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#84 Cheater

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 07:27 AM

The "This is the way you should be enjoying slot racing" police is on the prowl.


Aboslutely not and I am surprised you've expressed this viewpoint, Mike.

The quote in my post was this:

"If we slot car enthusiasts could only embrace the overall hobby, meaning that this hobby is not only about racing, and racing as fast as possible..."

Is this sentiment not inclusive, and respecting of every other aspect? It doesn't 'diss' the slot racing area of "as fast as possible," but rather suggests that's only one aspect, but not the only aspect...
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#85 Samiam

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 09:22 AM

I think the guide shoe ties us all together. Under every slot car there is a guide shoe of some sort. These gorgeous model race cars have one. So does butt ugly lexan blob bodied flexi racers. It is our undeniable common ground. Next time you break one make a pin out of it and wear it as a way to show your "colors". 

 

Speaking of guide shoes....I propose all event shirts show a guide under the cars and the words " slot car" somewhere. Just sayin'.

 

Now back to drooling over those amazing German slot cars.....


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#86 Dennis David

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 08:30 AM

I agree. You can't take the "slot" out of slot cars. Don't forget for this race st least concourse points counted in the overall results.

I think more people should try racing the 1/24 Scaleauto cars. They are a blast and run real smooth on sponge tires.
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#87 Tex

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 09:24 AM

I agree. You can't take the "slot" out of slot cars. Don't forget for this race st least concourse points counted in the overall results.

I think more people should try racing the 1/24 Scaleauto cars. They are a blast and run real smooth on sponge tires.

 

We run Scaleauto and BRM hardbody cars once a month at Dallas Slot Cars. The BRM's are harder to drive(plastic chassis) but fun nonetheless.


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#88 rvec

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 09:34 AM

These cars are very well detailed and take the modeling to a whole new level. I love the hard body concept with scale wheels. Here at Electron Raceway in Roseburg, Oregon we race 1/24 scale hard body cars with scholer, Scaleauto, or slotting plus chassis. All are reasonably priced at about $50. By the time you we add wheels, axles, guide, motor (either Proslot 16 or Hawk 7 depending on the class), body, etc. the cost is about $100. Our models are detailed but not to the extent of cars shown in the this thread. Wheel sizes are a bit smaller than scale but realistic. One inch rear and 15/16 fronts. For the Can-Am and Gran Sport (GT40, Porsche 917 etc), rear wheels min. .925, fronts may be cut to fit the wheel opening. Below are a few images

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Rich Vecchio


#89 Dennis David

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 12:25 PM

Rich runs a great series. These cars use parts that are not too hard to source. Other possibilities revolve around a spec chassis class with a minimum weight for the hard body excluding ballast.

New BRMs have metal / plastic chassis.

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#90 rvec

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 01:13 PM

Thanks Dennis

I forgot to post images of two of my favorites - 917s The red and blue ones are mine, the green one belongs to a prolific builder, Ron Leuenberger

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#91 sportblazer350

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 06:57 PM

What is being built and raced in Germany shows us the full extent of high quality building to detail AND the best quality SCALE chassis that makes for the best in real SCALE model car racing!  I applaud what the German racers are doing, and wish i was part of that group. There is a growing interest in SCALE hardbody racing around the USA: BRM, Scaleauto rtr cars and Hardbody cars with plastic model kit bodies and various chassis. It brings me back to 1965, especially when i can build a new car with a reissue Tamiya slot car Can-Am body with an H&R Racing chassis, or an AMT reissue model kit and a repro AMT chassis from Prof Motor, big can 36d motor. Time to build some more cars  :) 


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#92 Dennis David

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 07:36 PM

I think we in America must impart our own interpretation of Scale racing for it to be successful. I would love a US manufacturer of similar chassis that we can place under models that we have available to us. Even if some of the parts are foreign made.

To that end our metal chassis choices have a long way to go. If we can make flexi chassis you would think it possible to make Scale chassis were the demand acknowledged.

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#93 MSwiss

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 08:40 PM

I agree 100%.
 
While we have the B & E and now, the JPM, for Hardbodies, while not nearly as hard, as converting an FCR, you still need to have a fair amount of slot car skills, including a real hot iron, to get them to the point of an operating, and competitive slot car.
 
The latest mini-fad at Chicagoland, is to convert the JK 2500 stainless steel, inline chassis, for Hardbodies.
 
Brain surgery is probably easier. lol
 
I finally had to put a ban on guys narrowing them, during birthday parties.
 
Too much noise, and too many sparks, especially when they use an angle grinder, instead of a Dremel.
 
I've mentioned before, it's a shame the H & R wasn't designed by someone who understood a little more about usable ground clearance, and proper guide depth.

 

BTW, here's some the cars from our last Saturday night race.

 

20170408_182259-1.jpg

 

20170408_181941-1.jpg

 

20170408_181723-1.jpg


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#94 Dennis David

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 09:56 PM

Nothing wrong with those cars. We just need better performing adjustable chassis.

Brian does a good job with his chassis but I am not a fan of the lexan bodies they use.

While most of us are ok with soldering i wonder if that is a hinderance for newer racers?

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#95 MSwiss

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 10:43 PM

Brian's chassis are not for Lexan bodies.

They are for model car bodies.

Part of the problem with newbies and soldering, is they wind up buying an iron from Radio Shack (when they were still open) or Home Depot, for $25 or $30, they don't get hot enough, and the newbie gets discouraged, thinking they are doing something wrong.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#96 Dennis David

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 11:18 PM

Must be the other chassis.

 

IMG_6734.JPG


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#97 MSwiss

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 11:31 PM

That's the DLM.

That's a newer car that is only raced on ovals.

The bodies are vacuformed, but definitely not from Lexan.

They are so thick, they essentially are hardbodies, also.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#98 n9949y

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 01:54 AM

68%20McLaren%2067%20Lola%20rt%20sides_zp

Resilient Resin Bignotti Lola T-70, w/Quad Cam Ford engine, Academy Minicraft McLaren M8A

 

67%20Lola%20rear_zps7h9gp5aa.jpg

 

67%20Lola%20rt%20side%20low_zpso8bi2erm.

 

67%20Lola%20rt%20front_edited-2_zps3o9xh

 

68%20McLaren%20M8A%20L%20front%202_zps3i

 

68%20McLaren%20M8A%20L%20side_zpsnuea1mg

 

Racing 1/24 hard body Can Am's on a fully landscaped track- a rare occurrence in the US


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#99 n9949y

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 02:18 AM

Brian's chassis are not for Lexan bodies.

They are for model car bodies.

Part of the problem with newbies and soldering, is they wind up buying an iron from Radio Shack (when they were still open) or Home Depot, for $25 or $30, they don't get hot enough, and the newbie gets discouraged, thinking they are doing something wrong.

 

I'd recommend the Weller D650 "Industrial"  gun rated at 300 Watts which I've been using for 30 years. Gets very hot very quickly.


Todd Messinger

Remember folks, traffic lights timed for 35 MPH, are also timed for 70!

#100 MSwiss

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 08:10 AM

2 problems.

They are not $25.

They are too heavy.

For newbies willing to invest $60-70. I can get them an Ungar, or point them to a Hakko.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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