42 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

...it wouldn't take much effort.  Not that anyone is asking, but aside from a few minor details, I could just cobble-together existing parts and come up with a better mousetrap.

For the can, there's no doubt in my mind that a one-piece "drawn" type can is a better option than a folded-and welded type.   They're stronger, just as light and make at least as strong a field as other types. Take your pick, from the old "Falcon" to the current "Hawk 7", the tooling and basic can has been around for a long time now.  Of course, as-is, these things are way too long because the can length is part of the end bell (such as it is) on these.  You take the basic can and cut it down, and you're there.  I usually do these around .750", which is even shorter than your typical Hawk or PS "Euro" can by maybe .020" or so.  The only other stuff I do is to add axle-clearance notches and drill the can to mount a proper end bell...you know, one with actual brushes, springs and brush hardware you can fiddle with.    Oh yeah and, I removed the factory sintered bushing and reamed out the can hole for a 6mm x 2mm bearing because...well...I could!  **I think that for a universal type can, the traditional vertical mounting hole arrangement makes a lot more sense, but here I left the mounting holes as-is just because people are used to that by now, and there's existing brackets to match.

For the end bell, the Hawk seems to be the best of the ones out there, with a taller tower, a better/deeper bushing pocket and hole-spacing that makes fitting a larger diameter com easier.  Here, I drilled the bushing pocket so the bushing could be epoxied in place and have the epoxy run into the holes to "key" the bushing.  On all of these end bells, regardless of who makes them, the bushing can work it's way loose, and that can cause issues.  Here I installed some PS C motor hardware (the hole patterns across the Hawk, PS euro and C are all the same, and no real mods were necessary to get this all to work).  This hardware is a little more robust and seems to fit the brushes a bit better.  The taller spring cups can't hurt either.  They allow for more different spring choices (more coils), but also act as a better heat-dissipator than shorter ones.  In this case, the outside diameter of the end bell needs slight trimming to fit with either the PS or the JK end bells...just the radiused sides, not the "flats", and I ground-away some of the flats because they show and cover a bit of the can holes.  This also gives a slight bit more front-to-back clearance of the tops of the arm coils.

That's really all there is to it.  I painted the can here because after all my hacking, the bare metal would most likely rust, but a version plated from the factory wouldn't need paint.  This one will have the very nice ceramic type magnets.  They're very strong (*measuring past "Arcos") and entirely appropriate for most any reasonable wind.  Certainly the poly neos would work too, and might be "better" in some cases, but I really like these...so in they went.  This all will accept a stack as long as the current ones AND a full length wide-diameter com...MUCHO MAS MEJOR than the skinny short coms these things typically come with.  The hardware needed no modifying to clear the com.

***See what I mean?  All the stuff is either out there or "almost out there"!



 

[Samiam]

Me gusta ese motor negro.

 

          

 

 "They're very strong (*measuring past "Arcos") and entirely appropriate for most any reasonable wind".

 

I can't wait to see what you consider "reasonable"

[havlicek]

Samiam, on 13 Aug 2017 - 2:50 PM, said:

Me gusta ese motor negro.

 

          

 

 "They're very strong (*measuring past "Arcos") and entirely appropriate for most any reasonable wind".

 

I can't wait to see what you consider "reasonable"

 

 

Hi Sam,

 

     It isn't necessary to go all that "kray-zee" with these things.  Even a 65/30 on a short stack is a pretty zippy motor...as zippy as some folks want it to be!  Figuring the ceramics in this motor, I built and wound a 45/28 for this motor, and that's a pretty full wind for #28.  No matter how you do it, a good #28 wind is going to make for 6-layer coils when wound neatly, so this only goes to underscore that even with a long com and the bit shorter-than-normal can, there's enough room here to do whatever you wish.  Anywho...the arm is in the EZ-Bake oven speed-curing, so I'll post a picture later.

[Ramcatlarry]

Check the Mabuchi design standards.  The larger endbell OD and the smaller can end bushing OD makes it an "FC" form fit.  All of the FC-130 motors snap in and out of the same socket in plastic frames.

[olescratch]

You make it look sooo easy!  I always thought that these motors were the best candidates for re-purposing.  How do you tell the difference in the magnets?  Are you measuring them with a meter, or you just know what kind they are?  One other question, is the .750 a total measurement, or without the endbell?

[Gator Bob]

Ramcatlarry, on 13 Aug 2017 - 4:34 PM, said:

Check the Mabuchi design standards.  The larger endbell OD and the smaller can end bushing OD makes it an "FC" form fit.  All of the FC-130 motors snap in and out of the same socket in plastic frames.

 

Not 'exactly' understanding what you're saying here Larry but the FC motors make excellent platforms to build from.

Go John! Walnuts, peanuts ...

...heck I did nut too.

Her name is "Poly Pistachio". She is a Dog but a real 'screamer'. I post it over in My Built^TM.

[havlicek]

Ramcatlarry, on 13 Aug 2017 - 4:34 PM, said:

Check the Mabuchi design standards.  The larger endbell OD and the smaller can end bushing OD makes it an "FC" form fit.  All of the FC-130 motors snap in and out of the same socket in plastic frames.

 

Yes, I understand that. The "FK" designation seems to be a widely-used one anyway.

[Half Fast]

JH- My 2 cents

 

The motor you designed wouldn't sell for $12.95 and would be subject to tampering.

 

IMHO a simple fix to the FK would be to strengthen the flimsy brush arm/springs, I think that would help eliminate a lot of the variability and failures of the FK design.

 

Cheers

[havlicek]

olescratch, on 13 Aug 2017 - 4:47 PM, said:

You make it look sooo easy!  I always thought that these motors were the best candidates for re-purposing.  How do you tell the difference in the magnets?  Are you measuring them with a meter, or you just know what kind they are?  One other question, is the .750 a total measurement, or without the endbell?

 

Hi John,

 

     I don't mean to make it look or sound so easy, because even though I have a system down for this (I've done many many of these), it took a lot of trial and error (emphasis on the "error"), the basic stuff is already mostly there.  This all is far easier than channeling and chopping a Russkit 23 can for a "sort-of B motor".  

    The difference between the ceramics and the poly neos is pretty easy to spot when you look at both of them closely, so it's not really necessary to meter them.  If you do meter them (*and assuming your meter is calibrated somewhere near where mine is) the ceramics measure almost 1100 and the poly neos measure maybe 30-40% stronger still (*roughly from memory).

 

Quote

 

 

One other question, is the .750 a total measurement, or without the endbell?

 

From above: You take the basic can and cut it down, and you're there.  I usually do these around .750", which is even shorter than your typical Hawk or PS "Euro" can by maybe .020" or so.  So this measurement is the can only.  Adding another 20 thousandths or so to make this can the same length as the PS and JK minicans would make things even easier.  Heck, if you went slightly longer than those cans, you'd still have an awfully compact finished motor, so I would say that a .750" can length is probably the minimum to avoid creating more problems.

 

Quote

 

Not 'exactly' understanding what you're saying here Larry but the FC motors make excellent platforms to build from.

Go John! Walnuts, peanuts ...

...heck I did nut too.

Her name is "Poly Pistachio". She is a Dog but a real 'screamer'. I post it over in My Built^TM.

Kewl beans Bob...keep on a-buildin'!  

[havlicek]

Quote

 

JH- My 2 cents

 

The motor you designed wouldn't sell for $12.95 and would be subject to tampering.

 

IMHO a simple fix to the FK would be to strengthen the flimsy brush arm/springs, I think that would help eliminate a lot of the variability and failures of the FK design.

 

Cheers

 

Hi Bill, there's no reason this motor should sell for more than a Hawk or a PS "euro"...whatever they sell for.  I'm not using any "special" lams or techniques (*a LOT of people use the American arms), and certainly the com here doesn't have to used for a dollar or two cost savings.

***As for the tampering issue, I couldn't care less about that.  The subject here is a better motor using parts and even tooling that either already exist or "almost do".  Functionally, this motor would be no different than a Hawk or the PS minican motor as far as "tampering" is concerned, and those seem to be pretty popular.  

 

Quote

 

 

IMHO a simple fix to the FK would be to strengthen the flimsy brush arm/springs, I think that would help eliminate a lot of the variability and failures of the FK design.

 

 

The idea here isn't to "fix" existing motors, but to build a motor that is significantly better using pretty much what's out there.  The FK motors as they are seem fine for the price-point.  If you notice, I mentioned that this basic combination would make for a dandy all-purpose motor that could run anything from 65/30 arms all the way up to #27 or even hotter arms if care was taken.  Personally, I think the modern C can motor is a better choice for all sorts of racing and general use, but it seems the masses have spoken.

[havlicek]

Here's the arm fresh out of the oven, and after a com cut.  It measures well below .2 ohm, and this motor will be very fast.  How fast?...well fast enough for the "I wanna go real fast crowd", but not so fast as unnecessarily frighten the "we're already going too fast crowd".  

[Samiam]

Half Fast, on 13 Aug 2017 - 6:02 PM, said:

The motor you designed wouldn't sell for $12.95 and would be subject to tampering.

 

Bill,

  I don't think there's a DC motor made that wouldn't be subject to John tampering with. It's Sunday. Take your Lawyer hat off.  

 

John,

 

I like what you did with the C hardware on the Hawk EB. A good example of parts bin engineering. I found when clearancing the OE hardware for a big comm the brushes had even less support than the already questionable stock hoods. I'm going to do this upgrade on my Retro-Pro motors. 

[havlicek]

Quote

 

 

I like what you did with the C hardware on the Hawk EB. A good example of parts bin engineering. I found when clearancing the OE hardware for a big comm the brushes had even less support than the already questionable stock hoods. I'm going to do this upgrade on my Retro-Pro motors. 

 

Even though the hole spacing is the same for the newer Hawk (light colored), the PS minican and C can end bells and I guess others, the spacing side-to-side is what makes this work.  It's slightly wider on the newer Hawk end bell, and clearing the wider com here didn't require any extra grinding at all Sam.  The hardware pretty much just dropped-on.  It does offer more support (*at least some), and there's room for the springs' long legs.  I haven't installed brushes yet, but it looks as though the regular short brushes may fit with no further shortening.

[gotboostedvr6]

This was a Falcon 7 at one point.

Attached Images

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[Gator Bob]

Arm looks great John, a perfect drop in token for making a modern retro car ballistic.

 

===

 

David, looks like a mini 'superwinch' with 'wire rope' around the comm,

 

I get the idea you think all motors to be called slot car motors they must be tampered with before use.

I'm from Jersey too, could be an ideology taught at an early age ... 

 

 

My son, you must take things apart and then make them better... follow along to see the way.

*** Did you here that! Who said that?

[Mark Wampler]

Taking a look at the big picture, the success of JK’s Hawk line of FK motors is probably good as it gets at this time.   The whole premise of a motor that is tamper resistant, (but not impossible) is what racers want in a level playing field.  These motors are as cheap as they will get.    Motor building is played out in certain classes of racing, but is far from being as mainstream as the Hawk FK motors.   Any kind of  separate end bell with exposed brush configuration invites the same problems that have plagued  the motor controversy for the past 11 years since Retro came into being. 

 

ON the other hand,  if a change could be made,  it would be to arrange internal brush configuration in the same direction as conventional. (nothing new there)  Perhaps another class of motor racing could include a separate end bell and modified arm.  For all the thousands of used Hawks lying around,  re-purposed  motors could be a good thing.

[gotboostedvr6]

I think its a old mura arm.

I used C can mags and a PS C can endbell I turned down to fit.

[havlicek]

Mark Wampler, on 13 Aug 2017 - 8:58 PM, said:

Taking a look at the big picture, the success of JK’s Hawk line of FK motors is probably good as it gets at this time.   The whole premise of a motor that is tamper resistant, (but not impossible) is what racers want in a level playing field.  These motors are as cheap as they will get.    Motor building is played out in certain classes of racing, but is far from being as mainstream as the Hawk FK motors.   Any kind of  separate end bell with exposed brush configuration invites the same problems that have plagued  the motor controversy for the past 11 years since Retro came into being. 

 

ON the other hand,  if a change could be made,  it would be to arrange internal brush configuration in the same direction as conventional. (nothing new there)  Perhaps another class of motor racing could include a separate end bell and modified arm.  For all the thousands of used Hawks lying around,  re-purposed  motors could be a good thing.

 

 

Whether or not "exposed brushes" and a separate end bell invites tampering is not really just "besides the point" here Mark, it (tampering is otherwise known as "working on") IS part of the point.  Motors like the Hawk and PS "euro" minican are very popular motors, and motor-building does just fine worldwide, but I'm not here to argue those points.  ***These type motors exist now, and can  be better.  Whether or not motor-building is played out in "some classes" is also besides the point, lots of people DO build motors.  Lots of people apparently race motors with the evil exposed brushes and separate end bell , but the retro guys can hash that all out in those forums if they like.

[havlicek]

gotboostedvr6, on 13 Aug 2017 - 8:26 PM, said:

This was a Falcon 7 at one point.

 

 

Dave...I like what you did there...a LOT!  The Wasp arm is a good choice, but you certainly could have put "more arm" in such a setup.  Still, very cool mashup!

[Gator Bob]

The old green wire Super from Mura is a good choice since they real don't have a lot of timing and IIRC Ron Hershman said those had 5 more turns than the newer 90s Mura. They weren't tied.

 

I would do a bunch more 'nuts' but don't have an end cutter to shorten up C arms.

 

How much do those cost?

[Mark Wampler]

havlicek, on 13 Aug 2017 - 9:18 PM, said:

 

 

Whether or not "exposed brushes" and a separate end bell invites tampering is not really just "besides the point" here Mark, it (tampering is otherwise known as "working on") IS part of the point.  Motors like the Hawk and PS "euro" minican are very popular motors, and motor-building does just fine worldwide, but I'm not here to argue those points.  ***These type motors exist now, and can  be better.  Whether or not motor-building is played out in "some classes" is also besides the point, lots of people DO build motors.  Lots of people apparently race motors with the evil exposed brushes and separate end bell , but the retro guys can hash that all out in those forums if they like.

 

I have no argument there. Exposed end bells may not be evil, but building a used Hawk motor would be nice if the original arm could be used IF the internal brush orientation was the same.  Skim off the comm a little on the lathe and walla,  some more races from a used motor.  If there (God forbid) was international conflict and motors became unavailable from China,  re-purposed motors may be the only option, providing external end bell components are made in the U.S.

[MSwiss]

The industrial world isn't concerned with repurposing $2.00-$3.50 motors.

 

And reusing a Retro Hawk type motor, even with the brushes at 3 and 9 o'clock, would not be a snap.

 

An add-on plastic endbell, attached to a stock length, drawn can, wouldn't work , because you would have a motor that is too long, with the comm not reaching where the brushes are.

 

While the drawn can is nice, and bulletproof, the folded and welded can is not a reliability issue.

 

We race them in both Hardbody and F wing cars, and I don't recall any cases of a car retired with a bent can.

 

It was a minor issue, with cans bending, up until about 2008.

 

But when Proslot changed to a thicker material, it pretty much went away.

[Mark Wampler]

MSwiss, on 13 Aug 2017 - 10:02 PM, said:

The industrial world isn't concerned with repurposing $2.00-$3.50 motors.

 

 

Maybe not the industrial world, but a savvy racer with access to a machine shop might.

 

http://www.oldweirdh...chtips/cheetah/

[havlicek]

Not necessary when you have Hawk end bells that almost fit as-is.  

[Samiam]

Mark Wampler, on 13 Aug 2017 - 9:43 PM, said:

 If there (God forbid) was international conflict and motors became unavailable from China,  re-purposed motors may be the only option, providing external end bell components are made in the U.S.

I'm picturing a post apocalyptic slot car scene the likes of Road Warrior. 

 

Here is John after Gator Bob just made off with his last Bill Bugenis comms: