17 replies to this topic

[Champion 507]

Okay, I've known what a Monogram X-220 FT-36D motors is for over 50 years. What is the X-220S? Is it a "hotter" motor because it has a faster arm in it? If so, how many turns of what wire? If it was one of the last versions, were they wound with red wire like some Revell, Cox and Classic motors I've seen?

 

Or is it just because it came with a 16 tooth pinion gear and was used in one of their last sidewinder chassis and the S just simply stood for "sidewinder"?

[Champion 507]

Since no one knew the answer or didn't care, I thought I would PM PdL to see if he knew. Turns out, he was at LASCM and was able to research it and look at examples. I post this just in case others might want to know too.

 

Here is what I initially wrote him:

 

Sent 06 August 2018 - 09:05 PM

Hi PdL,

What is the difference in these 2 motors? I've known what a X-220 motor is for over 50 years. Someone on ebay has a Monogram Ford GT kit for sale. On the side of the box, Monogram touts the all new X-220S. It says it has an 8 volt arm with special windings and a special commutator. Okay, maybe red wire as opposed to brown wire, but a special comm? Please explain.

One guess I have is that the box art people were just blowing smoke about the motor and that the S really stood for sidewinder because it had a 16 tooth pinion installed on the motor.

Thanks,
Doug

 

Here is his reply:

 

Sent 06 August 2018 - 09:19 PM

Hello Doug,
since I am today in the right place, i checked. The only visible diff is the shorter shaft for SW use. The comm looks the same to me. Brown wire like the others. The winding COULD be different, as Monogram offered different armatures, some 6-volt, some 8-volt...
The "S" is likely for SW use, but otherwise...
Now, we have spare motors MIB and sealed, and there is a "Super X-220" and a "Super X-220S", while they both have the same short shaft and the SW pinion. Hence one has to believe... different winding.

 

[Geary Carrier]

Doug,

 

Nice looking arm...

[Bill from NH]

I like the recommended masking tape magnet shims. I've heard of using electrical tape before, but not masking tape, although it's probably thinner..

[SpeedyNH]

back in the 60's, masking tape is what we used. electrical tape was too soft and the glue melted. but we put it on the back of the magnets, not in the can. 2-3 layers

speedy

[Champion 507]

Geary, thank you very much for showing both sides of your historic piece there! 

 

Yeah, Bill, like Steve said, we applied masking tape to the magnets. In rebuilding old 36D's down through the years I've come across a number of  different tapes and shim materials used in these old Mabuchi's.

 

Mabuchi produced a few different winds for the 36D:

 

Factory stock: 110 turns #31

As they claim 6v.: 90 turns of #30 (not THAT much of an improvement in my opinion, but a little)

 "    "        "    4.5v.: 75 turns of #29 (now we're improving things)

 "    "        "      3v.: 60 turns of #28 (much hotter arm but probably too much for stock magnets and low temp nylon endbell). This one belonged in a Champion setup with their Celcon endbell and Arco magnets with shim.

 

Cox, Classic and Monogram sold these "hop-up" arms and there may have been other companies market them too, but by then, people were going to rewound 16D's or every kid's dream come true...the 26D.

[Bill from NH]

Doug, this wind infomation for 36D's is a useful thing to have, something I didn't have, thanks for posting it!  I still have 2 or 3 NOS 36D's to put in something someday. I do recall the time when I bought them for a buck to pull out the brushes & throw away the rest. I got about a dozen then at a LHS.   

 

Hi Speedy, how are things by you? I still recall the 16D rewound powered Sprints Plus car of yours that you let me try when Kenny had the track in Merrimack. That thing was a handful for me.

[SpeedyNH]

Howaya Bill?

I'm fine! long time no see.

currently on work travel in NC.

LOL that it is.  I used to rewind a ton of 16D's back in the 60's.  even some... 26D's!

you should come over when I get back and i'll show you what I've managed to hang onto.  

[Champion 507]

Bill,

 

You're welcome on the wind info.

 

Well, while we're at it, let's do the Mabuchi wind info they did for 16D arms:

 

110 turns #33 stock

90 turns #32

75 turns #31

60 turns #30

 

60 turns #30 was a very popular wind for a while in late 1965 - early 1966. Yes the arms were fast but brakes were terrible and I would be pretty safe to A$$ume that many a Mabuchi endbell ended up as a partial molten mess because of its low heat tolerance    

 

Give a kid a LaGanke and some wire and he'll have a Mabuchi endbell melted in no time!    That's the way it was in my case.

[Bill from NH]

Some day, I'll have to sit down & wind an arm. I have the materials & a LaGanke.

[Champion 507]

I bet you still have some #22 wire you bragged about a few years ago!     

[Mark Johnson]

42t 27  gauge with arco magnets

[Bill from NH]

I bet you still have some #22 wire you bragged about a few years ago!     

 

Me, I don't have anything bigger than 29 ga. & that may have come from you. I got a roll of 30 ga. too that's waiting for something.

[Steve Okeefe]

Doug,

 

Some additional published information from the archives:

 

First a Monogram ad from the April 1966 issue of MCT for an inline RTR with a "Super X-220 8-volt motor" :

 

 

Next a Monogram ad from the June 1966 issue of CM (two months later) for a sidewinder RTR with a "Super X-220S 8-volt motor" :

 

 

This is the first ad I've found for the sidewinder configuration.

 

As you can see, the two motors are the same "voltage", although the wind combinations are not shown.  The X-200S motors were pretty clearly a later batch from Mabuchi intended for use in sidewinder chassis (hence the shorter shaft), whereas the X-220 was from an earlier batch (with a standard length shaft) that Monogram used in their earlier inline cars.

 

Given the desperate need of the times to differentiate one version from another (and make the newer version seem somehow "better"), Monogram's advertising department simply gave it a NEW name X-220S vs. X-220.

 

Other than the shorter shaft length, and the distant possibility that the wind combination was tweaked but still resulted in an 8-volt rating, there seems to be no difference...

 

Hope that helps! 

[Champion 507]

I got a NOS Mabuchi styrofoam case of 24 of them and all have the shorter shaft with the 16 tooth pinion. Being the motor junkie I am, I couldn't leave one of the arms alone and unwound it, 110 turns #31 wire...pure bone stock. I test ran 22 out of the 24. Two of them are still sealed in a small clear plastic bag and I am leaving them that way. They all seemed to perform about as you would expect from that wind. Some were a little more out of balance than others, as you would expect. These were all brown wire versions, no red wire ones. I did have a loose red wire one in my stash and test ran it and, it too, ran like its brown wire predecessor. 

 

I did put 75 turns #29 red wire on the one I unwound and it certainly helped, but was no screamer. It might have been a handful to drive in that sidewinder chassis it was designed for. One would really need to make some gearing/chassis mods to make it worthwhile.

[Mark Johnson]

Stock magnets limit the wind so 29 wire may be it . Arcos will take 42t of 27 in a good friction free mill .

[Mark Johnson]

Monogram sold 3 volt arms that were 60t of 28 for reference .

[Champion 507]

see post #6