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#26 havlicek

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 06:23 AM

From a winding standpoint, #23 wire is a bear.  As the wire gauge goes down and the wire gets fatter, the spaces between the turns and the layers also get bigger.  That's why all of the arms pictured have the first layer coils going past the outside end of the winding leg, just to get enough wire on there.  Philippe's Kean arm is particularly nicely done in that regard, and I've seen some Steube #24 and maybe #23 (?) arms that are at least that nice!  What people may not realize is that each of those arms represents actual *work*...I mean WORK.  It's no easy thing to wind wire that large on a little slot car motor armature and produce stable coils and poles with equal resistance.

The whole question of whether or not these arms "made sense" is completely besides the point to me.  They obviously "worked" well enough for some racers under some conditions, because racers who used them with success are posting right here.  To me, just the technical difficulty involved with winding, and then finishing these arms is enough to give me sore fingers.


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#27 Bill from NH

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 06:57 AM

Steube also wound a 26/27 double that was quite hot too.


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#28 TSR

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 10:26 AM

 

The whole question of whether or not these arms "made sense" is completely besides the point to me.  They obviously "worked" well enough for some racers under some conditions, because racers who used them with success are posting right here.

 

Basically, it was like stuffing a large turbocharger on an antique 4-cylinder Offenhauser engine, and pulling up to 1400 HP from it, while making the car in which it was fitted, a road hazard.
It DID work for Jerry Grant, who set the first 200 mph lap in 1972 at OMS in California. He personally told me that at no time was the car "straight", but he kept his foot in and made it over 4 laps.
From my own recollection, driving a single 23 arm in a 4oz slot car with what was at the time, moderate down force, feels exactly like that.
 


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Philippe de Lespinay


#29 havlicek

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 10:39 AM

 

 

From my own recollection, driving a single 23 arm in a 4oz slot car with what was at the time, moderate down force, feels exactly like that

 

 

...which would probably be understating the experience for someone who *isn't* a racer familiar with such things.  ;)


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#30 elvis44102

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 11:45 AM

my memory is probably not as good as it once was, but when we in ohio first saw RVM front wheels i just had to have them, i dont know why but it seems they bent easily and it made mine at least unusable lol...they were the coolest LOOKING fronts ever


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#31 MSwiss

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 01:13 PM

Mike, you should have that arm cleaned up and recond, just for the memories!  :)

My memories are more centered on remembering my landlord really likes her rent on time. LOL

 

I ran some Steube 23’s and they always lasted except on tracks that ran with the batteries and charger at the same time. When I won the IM Nationals on Elmsford Raceway’s 220 engleman it made the semi and main.

Of minor note, you were running probably something like .440"-460" long stacks, while we were running more like .360"-390", in my era, so effectively, you were running a milder wind.


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#32 havlicek

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 04:14 PM

 

 

Of minor note, you were running probably something like .440"-460" long stacks, while we were running more like .360"-390", in my era, so effectively, you were running a milder wind.

 

Of course!  I think (but I don't know for sure) that more recent arms also may have had more timing advance on the arm/com itself.  These are really "apples & oranges" comparisons.  A #23 on a more modern short stack would be more a weapon than an armature.  Even so, the last #23 (63 or 73, I forget) I wound on a .460" stack never made it into a motor.  I just didn't think such an arm would find a good home, so I just filed it away.


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#33 MSwiss

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 04:33 PM

15 degrees would be the standard timing on arms of that era.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#34 havlicek

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 11:20 AM

15 degrees would be the standard timing on arms of that era.

 

 

Well, at least *that* part sounds reasonable.  :)


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#35 TSR

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 03:20 PM

Now that all the information has surfaced, I yanked the wrong parts from the car (they will found their way onto others that need them) and put the right bits on the chassis. First, the Mabuchi based Kean motor with Mura endbell, Champion hardware, Champion Arco mags and shims, Mini Wheels rear wheels and rubber, RVM fronts and Champion lead wires. All what is left to do is to set the lead wires in the Cox guide and glue the lead weights back on the chassis.

 

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Philippe de Lespinay


#36 tonyp

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 04:30 PM

Beautiful !!!!!


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#37 TSR

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 09:04 PM

Tony, since you "were there", I appreciate your compliment. I am now working on a car you built in 1969, for one of your customers. Stay tuned... :)


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#38 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 09:31 PM

This is a beautiful example of a Bob Emott sidewinder. I had a great time running these cars with Bob. I probably led almost every race i ran with one of these chassis .Unfortunately , this was also the era of motor problems that cut many races short for a lot of racers. With the winds getting hotter the motors were melting down, so crazy stuff started happening like pinions unsoldering themselves. I loved racing Bob's cars because they were the best in the world, from the hands of the master. He was a model car genius. And on top of that he was the first to take off the control sticks from R/C car transmitters  and put on a steering wheel,


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#39 brucefl

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 05:33 AM

Bruce, I selected this Kean 23S from our trove; it is unused and in pretty good shape:
Thanks alot phillippe its at or slightly above my greenaway 23s arm very nice,for a 23s.Id like to see a Havlicek  comparable arm,Im sure that would look like a masterpiece,now only if he had the koford level supplies(highest temp wire and epoxy and best comms.) then it could survive.Now i can print this photo out and frame it and 3D print it and race it,lol.
attachicon.gifDSCN1218.JPG

attachicon.gifDSCN1219.JPG

attachicon.gifDSCN1220.JPG

This was wound over Champion blanks with the gray/blue insulation before tab welding was introduced by Zimmerman and Thorp, so you can date it from right when the Emott car shown above was built.


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#40 brucefl

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 05:59 AM

Here's a look at a green away 23s for comparison.

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#41 brucefl

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 06:06 AM

From a winding standpoint, #23 wire is a bear.  As the wire gauge goes down and the wire gets fatter, the spaces between the turns and the layers also get bigger.  That's why all of the arms pictured have the first layer coils going past the outside end of the winding leg, just to get enough wire on there.  Philippe's Kean arm is particularly nicely done in that regard, and I've seen some Steube #24 and maybe #23 (?) arms that are at least that nice!  What people may not realize is that each of those arms represents actual *work*...I mean WORK.  It's no easy thing to wind wire that large on a little slot car motor armature and produce stable coils and poles with equal resistance.
The whole question of whether or not these arms "made sense" is completely besides the point to me.  They obviously "worked" well enough for some racers under some conditions, because racers who used them with success are posting right here.  To me, just the technical difficulty involved with winding, and then finishing these arms is enough to give me sore fingers.

John please post photos of your 23s for us to drool over,lol
Bruce Schwartz

#42 brucefl

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 06:20 AM

From a winding standpoint, #23 wire is a bear.  As the wire gauge goes down and the wire gets fatter, the spaces between the turns and the layers also get bigger.  That's why all of the arms pictured have the first layer coils going past the outside end of the winding leg, just to get enough wire on there.  Philippe's Kean arm is particularly nicely done in that regard, and I've seen some Steube #24 and maybe #23 (?) arms that are at least that nice!  What people may not realize is that each of those arms represents actual *work*...I mean WORK.  It's no easy thing to wind wire that large on a little slot car motor armature and produce stable coils and poles with equal resistance.
The whole question of whether or not these arms "made sense" is completely besides the point to me.  They obviously "worked" well enough for some racers under some conditions, because racers who used them with success are posting right here.  To me, just the technical difficulty involved with winding, and then finishing these arms is enough to give me sore fingers.

he John I'd like to order your version of the 23s Rembrandt style,but please finish with gold plating after epoxy and balance because I want to frame it,it will be a wall hanger as most of my prised art creation that the true artists here have made for me over the years,ok?
Bruce Schwartz

#43 havlicek

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 09:19 AM

 

 

he John I'd like to order your version of the 23s Rembrandt style,but please finish with gold plating after epoxy and balance because I want to frame it,it will be a wall hanger as most of my prised art creation that the true artists here have made for me over the years,ok?

 

Hi Bruce,

On second thought, you can always just PM me here.  This thread should be about the Emmott car, and Philippe's subsequent posts.  :)


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John Havlicek

#44 TSR

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:46 AM

Well, anyway, this is the car now all finished and on the display shelf:

emott_cal_arco_copyright.jpg

And to please Bruce, yes, there is a Kean S25 in that motor... :)


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#45 brucefl

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 03:52 PM

 

Hi Bruce,

On second thought, you can always just PM me here.  This thread should be about the Emmott car, and Philippe's subsequent posts.  :)

I didnt start the talk about the 23s armature,and how difficult it was to wind,i just started envisioning what a havlicek 23s arm must look like,compared to the masters of the past,by the way anyone know where kean is today?


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#46 brucefl

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 03:57 PM

Well, anyway, this is the car now all finished and on the display shelf:

attachicon.gifemott_cal_arco_copyright.jpg

And to please Bruce, yes, there is a Kean S25 in that motor... :)

Again thanks phillippe,and do you know where kean is these days,i used to see him giving motors to all the pros when they came to nutley.


Bruce Schwartz

#47 havlicek

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 03:57 PM

I didnt start the talk about the 23s armature,and how difficult it was to wind,i just started envisioning what a havlicek 23s arm must look like,compared to the masters of the past,by the way anyone know where kean is today?

 

 

Hi Bruce,

     No big thing.  Personally, I encourage other people to chime-in and show their stuff in my threads, but I recognize that not everyone feels the same way.  No offense meant!


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#48 brucefl

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 04:10 PM

 

 

Hi Bruce,

     No big thing.  Personally, I encourage other people to chime-in and show their stuff in my threads, but I recognize that not everyone feels the same way.  No offense meant!

hey once i saw mike show that 23s; jumped on the band wagon.


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#49 TSR

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 04:48 PM

Bruce, I do not know where Bob Kean would be today, but others may know.


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#50 tonyp

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 04:49 PM

No idea here.


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