31 replies to this topic

[Highnoon]

Saw the arrow at the flexipoolza, looked interesting.

Anyone running on a lightly banked Gerding King?

Any idea in total chassis weight.

How about the new Avenger, same questions.

[TallyBernie]

Hello,

 

I ran the Arrow on an older Tunkel Engleman and Tunkel Blue King. I do not remember the Arrow's weight but recall it was low, especially when configured with the available aluminum pans. In limited testing, the frame seemed quite capable, p-e-r-h-a-p-s on par with a similarly equipped Mossetti Defender, but the Arrow was very fragile. The Arrow's center section became badly deranged after some realy gentle offs; I had no explanation for the amount of damage relative to the slight offs. That ended my Arrow testing. I contacted RM and they explained the frame I had was first generation and its successor had a stronger center section. Regrettably RM did not offer a replacement, but such is the case for early purchase/trial. I presume the frame you recently saw is RM's updated Arrow with a stouter center section. 

 

My teammate and I are currently racing the Mossetti Avenger together with the Defender on our tracks. Mossetti publishes the weight of each frame and available pans; please see that info on Mossetti's FB page. Both frames are great on our tracks - Blue King, Engleman, and Orange. The Avenger in its lightest configuration may be 0.1 sec quicker than a similarly outfitted Defender. I understand the Avenger is advertised as a flat track frame, but it is perfectly at home on our tracks. 

 

I hope this info helps..

[Matt Sheldon]

I have heavily tested the aluminum pan Arrow, vs. Defender, vs. Avenger, vs. JK C43. 

 

To start all are within a tenth of each other on any given day on our semi fast American King. Lap times are in the low to mid 4.0 range with .750 tires, Hawk 7 geared 11/36, Renedage .007 body and weighing 75 - 77 grams.

 

Arrow - Personally I have run the fastest times most consistently with the Arrow. It feels the most planted and it never feels different lap to lap. The biggest downside is the pan itself. It is a train wreck out of the package. It is lightened so much that when they form the body clip tabs it distorts the pan something awful. One took 2 hours to get to a comfortable flatness, but never to the point of being perfect. The other issue I found was that the crossover that connects the pans needs to be a tad higher. On both of mine the pans sat up a little in the back. I could lightly sand the underside, but technically this would be illegal. The performance does not seem restricted regardless which is a testament to the center section design. A small piece of silicone tape horizontally from each side of the pan at the rear helps not only restrict pan movement, but center the long pans which makes transitioning of the car much better. The smallest incident with tweak the pan. Keeping it straight will be a constant part of your pit strategy on raceday. I will say that the car still runs the number even when it gets bent. Fit and finish is crude compared to the Mossetti and JK chassis. I would like to see the pan flattened and then hard anodized. I think it would really help robustness. Rough weekly races are not friendly to this chassis.

 

Avenger - If traction is medium to low bite, you may prefer this center section with a defender pan. It has a little more fluid torsional twist and up and down movement of the center rails. It however can be a little inconsistent on higher speed tracks as due to the additional movement the car can gain extra traction at times allowing it to become unbalanced and deslot. 

 

JK C43 - Solid and consistent. Don't waste the money on the aluminum pan, the front ears will tweak up just running through the bank, even if you run a full length pin tube across the front. The stainless pan works great and the extra weight does not hinder performance. It is a very planted platform and can easily be my favorite chassis on various race days. It is always the best performer in the donut and probably why it is such a great flat track platform. Like the Arrow I add silicone tape horizontally to help center the pan. You will also want to add bullet tape under the pan crossover bar to stop up and down pan movement .007 - .010. Likewise you will want to shim the J bars.

 

Defender - For most days it is just the go to chassis. It just seems to do everything well and is easily tuned with tires. Biggest negative can be the rear uprights. Check for cracking after they have been formed. Additionally on the left side there can be a small hump on the bottom from when they form the upright which can hinder getting the car flat. 

 

On all I limit bitebar movement and tape them down.

[Jay Guard]

Hey Matt:

Great info on the various Flexi chassis!  One question though, you mention "silicone" tape several places, did you by any chance mean sticky-back teflon tape?  That's what I use and and as you mentioned it really seems to help settle/smooth things out.  If indeed you are using silicone tape where do you get it?

[Matt Sheldon]

Hey Matt:

Great info on the various Flexi chassis!  One question though, you mention "silicone" tape several places, did you by any chance mean sticky-back teflon tape?  That's what I use and and as you mentioned it really seems to help settle/smooth things out.  If indeed you are using silicone tape where do you get it?

 

Hi Jay,

 

We are probably talking the same tape. I get it from McMaster Carr. The recently changed part #'s on it. It is listed as Silicone tape and is orange in color as it is a high temp application.

 

McMaster Carr part # 1466N11 1/2" x 36" 1/32" thickness

[Jay Guard]

Thanks for the info Matt, I'll check it out.

[MSwiss]

A little aside.

 

We were racing our monthly fun race GTP race.

 

One of the fast guys was falling off in a turn he shouldn't of.

 

I stopped the race a few times to roll the braid, even though it didn't seem to be up.

 

I finally looked at his car and informed him 1 of the 4 pin tube uprights, on his aluminum pan, had snapped off / was missing.

 

His answer was "Yeah, I know....it's been that way for awhile".

 

He's running with 3 body mounts and he's acting like that's normal. LOL

 

One of the other local hot GTP racers, quit running in the weekly GTP races, down the street, because he was tired of tearing up his car, running hypersonic speeds, on the Gerding King. (with having to run a light, flimsy car, to stay at the front of the pack)

 

It seems like a weight minimum with these cars, to discourage aluminum pans, would be beneficial.

[Matt Sheldon]

A little aside.

 

We were racing our monthly fun race GTP race.

 

One of the fast guys was falling off in a turn he shouldn't of.

 

I stopped the race a few times to roll the braid, even though it didn't seem to be up.

 

I finally looked at his car and informed him 1 of the 4 pin tube uprights, on his aluminum pan, had snapped off / was missing.

 

His answer was "Yeah, I know....it's been that way for awhile".

 

He's running with 3 body mounts and he's acting like that's normal. LOL

 

One of the other local hot GTP racers, quit running in the weekly GTP races, down the street, because he was tired of tearing up his car, running hypersonic speeds, on the Gerding King. (with having to run a light, flimsy car, to stay at the front of the pack)

 

It seems like a weight minimum with these cars, to discourage aluminum pans, would be beneficial.

 

We had a local racer propose a 100-gram weight minimum for Flexi. My response to that is that we already have it, it is called Retro CanAm.

 

I built a JK C21 out of old parts using an OS Bentlee body and still ran upper 4.2's with it. It weighed 98 grams. Personally, it will not change the finishing order or even really change the lap totals. If we are going to make all the classes the same, then just make it 1 class.

[MSwiss]

I didn't say it would change the finishing order.

 

Just allow people to finish.

 

On our Wednesday night GTP, we race all steel, .035" JK C7's, based on close-out RTR cars, Jerry & Tim had sold me, over a 5-7 year period.

 

Recently I had to also allow the C21, so new people could buy RTR's, and get involved.

 

PS-IMO, the 2 100G cars you describe, along with having 2 different price points, have 2 different personalities.

[Matt Sheldon]

I didn't say it would change the finishing order.

 

Just allow people to finish.

 

On our Wednesday night GTP, we race all steel, .035" JK C7's, based on close-out RTR cars, Jerry & Tim had sold me, over a 5-7 year period.

 

Recently I had to also allow the C21, so new people could buy RTR's, and get involved.

 

PS-IMO, the 2 100G cars you describe, along with having 2 different price points, have 2 different personalities.

 

Doesn't make sense to have classes that racers have to buy their parts off eBay that are discontinued or 15 year old technology.

 

Everything in Slotcar racing shouldn't be old technology. I like the idea of spec racing, but with limits. As a track owner you need to do what satisfies the majority of your racers, I would respect that decision at any track I race at, but not if parts were not readily available at the parts department of the raceway.

 

The price points are very similar when you factor in that Flexi body consumption is higher. Latest versions of CanAm are driving more and more like Flexi's daily.

 

To your original concern, I have not seen aluminum pan failure as being an epidemic. I would think that spur gear failure from coming out and being hit in the rear would be the #1 issue for a DNF (weight not a factor), broken lead wire from hitting the person that came out (weight not a factor) and lastly spun pinion (weight not a factor). 

 

My original response directly answered the OP's question. As a blog admin,  world-class slot racer, product manufacturer and successful track owner you have grossly ignored that.

[MSwiss]

I clearly said as an aside.

My comment had nothing to do with the information you provided the OP.

I never said other raceways should run C7's or even the readily available C21.

Just that I do.

My point was that I had to stop the race twice, making the day longer for the other racers, and myself, for a car that had only had three body mounts.

And another guy quit racing a class, in a weekly race, because he was tired of bending up his cars.

I thought the point of slot racing, was to slot race / have participation.

[Highnoon]

Thanks Matt for the useful information.

I have decided to get into flexi more and run GT1 and LMP in addition to wing car group f and GTP. I have run GTP but not that seriously. I would rather run something else but that all that’s available to race in Northern Ohio.

The race to build the lightest flexi while great for the manufacturers is not great for slot racers. This consistent arms race of who can build the lightest center section and pans is crazy. Also these aluminum pans bend, the center sections bend. I know, don’t crash but easier said than done on a King.

[Matt Sheldon]

Thanks Matt for the useful information.

I have decided to get into flexi more and run GT1 and LMP in addition to wing car group f and GTP. I have run GTP but not that seriously. I would rather run something else but that all that’s available to race in Northern Ohio.

The race to build the lightest flexi while great for the manufacturers is not great for slot racers. This consistent arms race of who can build the lightest center section and pans is crazy. Also these aluminum pans bend, the center sections bend. I know, don’t crash but easier said than done on a King.

 

Anytime Gary!

 

The Mossetti Defender center section is as strong as they come! Nothing from prior generations of any manufacturer is stronger or of a better material regardless of weight. As far as aluminum pans bending, if you bend a Defender aluminum pan, you pretty much would have bent anything else ever made with the exception of a Champion Turbo steel pan. It is just that good overall. I race GTP flexi every weekend. I crash a lot and I am terrible at looking ahead. I have only ever had 1 chassis since 2008 not be able to finish a race due to being bent. Additionally, if you are racing for 10th place, a little extra weight of a steel pan will probably work to your advantage.

 

In my opinion, the race towards a better, lighter chassis is not an issue. If we are really worried about a $30-$40 upgraded chassis every 3-4 months, then we should maybe consider a different hobby. But that's just me possibly as well. I like variations and I like options. SlotCar racing is great because we can have that for a reasonable price with the exception of Eurosport and upper-class wing racing.

 

Like anything, there is a startup cost and that can be confusing, expensive and overwhelming at times. But once you have it, it really is good for years to decades moving forward. 

[Dave Buchholz]

From a different viewpoint, I have returned to Slot Car Racing from a few decades of absence. (And already have managed to piss off a few people) The basics have not changed. The details have.

Years ago it was the armature of the month race. Now it CAN be sealed motors. Chassis are similar, and although the old Parma Turboflex with 1/8 axles is out dated, it sure is handy when I drag a buddy along and he puts in into the wall. Its bullet proof.

I have a JK43 with aluminum pans for GTP racing. It is a competitive chassis, that others have set the track record with, BUT not with me driving.

The cost of three cars for different classes averaged a little over $100 each. For a hundred bucks, (the cost of one dinner with my wife) where else am I going to have this much fun? (It won't be having dinner with my .....)

I'm just happy to be racing again!

[Dave Buchholz]

Question that I have is that if you run a pin tube side to side to stabilize the aluminum pans, how are you attaching it the the aluminum? JB Weld, some sort or solder? What material is the pin tube to make a compatible attachment?

[GE53]

To set up pin tube mounts on aluminum pans I've used 1/16 axle keepers/retainers. Ream out clip hole so retainer slips through and solder a motor spacer or 3/32 axle spacer depending on OD of retainer and don't forget the pin tube whether full width or individual pieces. Small soldering tweezers are a big help also.

[Shiggy]

Question that I have is that if you run a pin tube side to side to stabilize the aluminum pans, how are you attaching it the the aluminum? JB Weld, some sort or solder? What material is the pin tube to make a compatible attachment?

I use the plated pan, which can be soldered.

[gatormark]

Why are you guys using pin tubes? Adavantage?

[GE53]

Pin tube mounting? Old habits die hard especially when there's a track call because a body has been knocked off.

[Fast Freddie]

I use Koford magnet adhesive along with pin tube stops on the unplated aluminum and anodized pans. Bake them as required and so far no problems.   

[dalek]

The OP only asked about Arrow and Avenger chassis, but since other chassis have been mentioned, I'll just say, if you're a Mossetti fan, you might want to check out the Striker.

 

I run both Defenders and Strikers, and have had a lot of success with both.  The Striker center section is 3 grams heavier than the Defender, but sometimes it handles better. 

 

The Striker center is stouter than the Defender -- besides my own, I've seen at least three other Defenders have an arm and guide tounge get bent as the result of a wall shot. 

 

The Striker arms won't bend as easily as Defenders because they aren't as long and narrow.  Also, the Striker's guide tongue is stronger than the Defender's because it doesn't have a hole behind it.

[Matt Sheldon]

The OP only asked about Arrow and Avenger chassis, but since other chassis have been mentioned, I'll just say, if you're a Mossetti fan, you might want to check out the Striker.

 

I run both Defenders and Strikers, and have had a lot of success with both.  The Striker center section is 3 grams heavier than the Defender, but sometimes it handles better. 

 

The Striker center is stouter than the Defender -- besides my own, I've seen at least three other Defenders have an arm and guide tounge get bent as the result of a wall shot. 

 

The Striker arms won't bend as easily as Defenders because they aren't as long and narrow.  Also, the Striker's guide tongue is stronger than the Defender's because it doesn't have a hole behind it.

Like you Dale, there are days where the Striker center just works better.

[Tony Avery]

Hate to drag up an old topic but felt like it is warranted.  I purchased a RM Arrow and received it in the mail fairly quickly.  I was excited and opened the package to find one of the worst chassis in terms of flat and aligned that I have ever seen.   I spent a couple of hours just trying to make this thing usable, struts bent, center pan retainer bent, body mount locations are all over the place, this thing would have been better if had been made of balsa wood.      

 

I am so disappointed, I had hoped that many of the original issues had been addressed, but by the condition of the one I received I don't believe that is the case.    I have sent an email to the MFG, asking him to make it right, but I don't have high hopes.  Anyone with similar experience?    Buyer Beware.

 

Will report back if MFG replies or not. 

[Michael Jr.]

I ordered several to stock on the shelves of the track and all were in perfect condition. No issues and no returns. Sold a few and no complaints.

[Bill from NH]

Michael, post #23 was the first post made by a new member. Maybe he has a legitimate complaint, maybe he doesn't. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to return.    I don't have any RM chassis, or a place to race them, but I know the family who uses the RM name also has a southeastern raceway with several tracks. If their product was defective, they'd make it right.