35 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

     I recently got a heads-up in a PM from a Blogger about these.  I don't know if they're relatively new or if they've been around for a while and I just haven't been paying attention.    I also don't see all that much interest in general regarding the D can motors, but I'm not a racer.

     So the questions that remain to be answered are:

1)  How strong are these?  The packaging refers to "1000+ Gauss", but I have no way of knowing what that means in real terms because I use my meter only for "relative" measurements and don't know if it even gives me true readings in Gauss.

2) How thick are these?  The strong D can ceramics measure somewhere around 1100 on my meter, which is plenty strong alright, but if you want the MOST "OOMPH" out of them, a larger diameter .560" arm is a good starting place because of their thickness and inner radius contour.  You can always O.D. grind the arm down a bit from there...OR...just use them with a normal sized arm and work with a very large "hole".

     Just for "sheets and gargles", I ordered-up a pair to see for myself.  In the meantime, has anyone screwed-around with these?  Link below:


https://e-slotcar.co...agnets-ps-2216/


 

[Kim Lander]

Hmmmmmm....looks like a good substitute for Arcos....lol

[havlicek]

Hmmmmmm....looks like a good substitute for Arcos....lol

 

 

There are some nice ceramic choices too Kim...but the thickness of these could make them a "better" substitute with smaller O.D arms.  I have to assume the relative strength of these is fine though.  I guess I'll find out for myself when they come, and will post here afterwards, but as always...the REAL test is on the track in a running motor under real world conditions.

[boxerdog]

Anyone else watch "Engine Masters"?

 

I could see John in front of a dyno, endlessly trying different winds, magnets and hardware, myth-busting for all of us....maybe include a few of the well-known gurus in our hobby as guest commentators. Much to the dismay of manufacturers everywhere, even if there aren't really that many left.

 

Just kidding, I know John has a "real job" and maybe doesn't want to be a TV star!

[havlicek]

Some years ago, someone here (I forget who) asked me about doing a kind of "show and tell" video.  I was uncomfortable about the idea, but had said "OK".  That's about as close as I've ever come, which is just fine with me! 

PS...I don't now, and never have before owned a dyno, and don't really see much use for them...but I understand others use them, which is what makes a horserace!

[havlicek]

I forgot to mention that I guess (?) these ARE fairly new and/or that I'm venturing into uncharted territory trying these out.  So be it...I'll post back when I see what's what...or at least my version of what's what! 

[MSwiss]

    I also don't see all that much interest in general regarding the D can motors, but I'm not a racer.

You see a fair amount of D can motors in drag cars.

[Geary Carrier]

 

 

   
1)  How strong are these?  The packaging refers to "1000+ Gauss", but I have no way of knowing what that means in real terms because I use my meter only for "relative" measurements and don't know if it even gives me true readings in Gauss.
 

 

John this little reference seems to work pretty well for me and will afford a reasonable idea of the accuracy of your meter.

 

https://www.ebay.com...TkAAOSwnLdWq-Vq

 

[havlicek]

You see a fair amount of D can motors in drag cars.

 

Yep, that's about what I've seen also, but not much else.

 

 

 

 

 

John this little reference seems to work pretty well for me and will afford a reasonable idea of the accuracy of your meter.

 

https://www.ebay.com...TkAAOSwnLdWq-Vq

 

Looks fine Geary...but as soon as I get them and measure them, I'll have an instant reference of how strong they are against my measurements of other magnets.  I'm also just as curious as to how thick they are.  They "look" kinda thin from what little I can tell from the screenshot...which ain't much...and with a fairly thin tip, kinda like a scaled-up version of the ones we're more familiar with.

[havlicek]

Just a little "heads-up",  I got these magnets today and stuck them in an actual can to take some measurements/readings.

1)  In a Mabuchi 16D can, the magnets make for a hole of a little over .590", so they're "pretty much" the same thickness as the strong ceramics from ProSlot and/or the Parma EPX ones.  So, a .518" arm would probably be fine, as a lot of road-racers seemed to be OK with a large air-gap in their D can motors.  For me , this means using a .560" diameter arm and going for the gusto.

2)  ProSlot quotes a gauss of 1000 or so for these.  As a guide to *relative strength*, the strong ceramics come in somewhere in the mid- 1100's on my meter.  ***These things come in at over 1500 on the same meter!  That translates into almost a 40% increase in strength over the already very strong D can ceramics, and I'm all about that!

Boy howdy, without even knowing what will happen for sure, I'm saying "thank you" to ProSlot for bringing these things to market.  I WILL be making a motor featuring these magnets, and I can go with either a "hell-bent for leather" drag motor or a G20 road racer...but I'm leaning towards the former.  Who knows why ProSlot did this, but D can motors could suddenly become more popular again.  I mean, if the size translates into gobs of torque and revs, then it would make sense.

[Geary Carrier]

Go for the gusto...

[MSwiss]

I think these will be a very popular magnet for Proslot.

Stronger is usually always better,and you can tune accordingly to get more horsepower/better lap times.

But in my experience you can't get more torque and more revs, without doing something else.

When I've gone to stronger magnets, that's allowed me to run more timing, or a hotter wind, or a bigger air gap, or gear more aggressively, to achieve better results on the track.

[havlicek]

 

 

I think these will be a very popular magnet for Proslot.

 

 

Me too...or at least they should be.

 

 

 

Stronger is usually always better,and you can tune accordingly to get more horsepower/better lap times.

Agreed!

 

 

 

But in my experience you can't get more torque and more revs, without doing something else.

Well, if the magnets are the limiting factor for any particular wind, arm diameter and timing advance, then it only stands to reason that either the revs or the torque...but maybe both or either can increase with significantly stronger magnets.  I think that torque could probably increase with the right wind here given a .560" arm, but it also could be that a .518" arm wound hot could spin faster.  If people catch-on and start really digging-in experimenting using these magnets, it could be that there are a few ways to go and get "more" something    Anyway, these ARE significantly stronger than the best D can ceramics so...let the games begin!

[gotboostedvr6]

I'd do a proper open wind for drag racing. Small diameter and coat hanger wire.

[gotboostedvr6]

Leave the airgap large. Use a proslot drag D can.

[havlicek]

I'd do a proper open wind for drag racing. Small diameter and coat hanger wire.

 

10-4 on the big wire Dave.  I'm curious about the small diameter preference...how come?  .560" arms ground down to .550-.555" seem to work really well.

 

Leave the airgap large. Use a proslot drag D can.

Whatever the arm diameter and wind, I'll probably be using a Mabuchi 16D can with a few tweaks.  They make for a strong field, are light (*certainly much lighter than the PS drag can) and physically strong.  The end bell will of course be modern, either Pro Slot or Parma, that part doesn't matter as much as the can.

On the large air gap, I've seen people say that D can motors "like" large air gaps, and I guess that could be the case with a #30 wind and strong ceramics because of too much magnet for the wind.  Here, with these being produced (*I would think?) specifically for those who want more magnet, it seems odd to purposely make a motor where the field strength the arm sees has been limited.

***I am not at all doubting the experience of racers like yourself , they are the ones I get my best information from!

[Pablo]

Only one way to find out, try both a 518 and a 560 in your 590 hole 

[Danny Zona]

Only one way to find out, try both a 518 and a 560 in your 590 hole 

Nothing like trial and error.

Everybody would usually use the tightest legal air gap set at. 575 with small arms in the. 513-.518 range back in the day.

So, I tried bigger air gaps and ended up going faster. I usually liked the .590-.600 range the best.

[havlicek]

Only one way to find out, try both a 518 and a 560 in your 590 hole 

 

Well, I don't often sell motors with two arms, so I'll have to choose one for this build.  I guess I'll just do "eenie meenie miney mo"! 

 

 

 

Nothing like trial and error.

Yep!

[Pablo]

What I meant was, try both on power supply using "seat of the pants" feel. Keeping in mind a drag guy isn't going to care about temperature as much as a road guy. I saw a complete PS drag motor with these mags and a .490 arm so it wouldn't surprise me if BOTH a 518 AND a 560 work. Guessing further I'll bet a 518 would be for the road guy and the 560 for a drag guy with a heavy car.

 

But I'm clutching at straws. You are the guy with the new strong mags and you are there, I'm not   

[havlicek]

Gotcha Pablo,

     Well, even for me, it costs something to wind an extra arm...both in money and time/effort.    I may go "half way there" and press two stacks and see what's what by "feel".  These magnets seem to have enough OOMPH that a .518" arm could still be a useful drag choice with a really big wire wind.  I've also heard good things doing FT36D drag motors with the solid neos and huge air gaps.  *I THINK* that first microsecond of start-up (*where current draw can be astronomical) is where these motors can suffer from too much magnet.

[Phil Smith]

Not that I know

 

On the large air gap, I've seen people say that D can motors "like" large air gaps, and I guess that could be the case with a #30 wind and strong ceramics because of too much magnet for the wind.  Here, with these being produced (*I would think?) specifically for those who want more magnet, it seems odd to purposely make a motor where the field strength the arm sees has been limited.

 

Not that I really know, but that makes sense to me. If you're winding a really hot arm, you would think a small air gap would be better.

 

Actually I don't understand why the big air gaps worked with 16D motors. I use to run small air gaps in I-15, which is a mild arm, and they ran great.

[gotboostedvr6]

Those magnets will die a quick death if your buyer uses it for a roundy round if you use big wire.

Drag guys like small diameter arms.

[havlicek]

OK...so I did what I said above and pressed two stacks, just so I could stick 'em in there and turn them by hand.  I am definitely going to go with the smaller .518" arm here, as these are indeed very very strong magnets.  They are not as strong as the solid or "sintered" neos with the nickle plating, but they aren't far off if "feel" means anything.  ***Even with the larger air-gap, there's a surprising amount of resistance and "cog" turning the arm by hand, and the arm I pressed has fairly wide crowns!  I am fairly confident that you could have a "too much magnet" situation here going with the .560" lams, even if the arm was ground all the way to .550" or even smaller.

 

 

 

Those magnets will die a quick death if your buyer uses it for a roundy round if you use big wire.

Understood, and this will be a drag motor for sure, and sold as such Dave.  If the buyer decides to use it for a road course, that would be on him/her. 

***As a side note, I did wind and build a bunch of minican motors with the stock small diameter coms, some of which had the polyneos and were wound with #26 wire for road-track testing in Europe a couple of years ago.  The feedback I got was that they ran "pretty close" to cars with eurosports motors, and I *think* the coms were the first thing to let go.  I heard nothing about the mags "softening" or weakening, which surprised me.

Anyway, with some comments from time-to-time from racers that the Chinese motors are already plenty fast or even too fast (!?), I think it would be a rare person today that would run a #24 or #25 D can motor in a road car.  It would be interesting to wind a longer stack (*.440) "12" arm or even as mild as a 60/30 and get some solid numbers with these magnets in a plain-jane Pro Slot D can setup for road use.  Not knowing what PS intended for these...or even IF they intended them for any "particular" use, they could open up some interesting new possibilities for the good-old D can and spec racing.  Even #28 or #27 wire *might* be OK in some "vintage-type" cars/thingies if the timing is kept on the mild side???

Further on down the road, a pair of these could be sanded-down to fit a C can as well, but the arc would be "wrong" for the can's insides and that's beyond what they were built for.

Sooo, these are neat magnets alright and I hope Pro Slot does well with them...they should!  Next step is to space and wind an arm...probably around 20 degrees advance.  That should be plenty for a big wire arm.

[havlicek]

The setup is done.  Can is/was the Russkit 22/23 type with a bearing installed and drilled for bracket mounting.  End bell is your standard Parma with Mura Tabbed hardware slightly modified to fit.  The magnets are for-sure grabby as heck, even with a .518" arm blank in there.  It should be an entertaining motor!