32 replies to this topic

[eBay]

$2,499.99 (0 Bids)
End Date: Monday Jan-13-2020 17:05:19 PST
Buy It Now for only: $3,249.99

 

[Auction is over but there is info here worth saving, which is why the thread has been moved.]

[MattD]

Since we don't have a book to go by, maybe Philippe can answer this  question. I may have asked him this 30 years, ago, but that was another lifetime.

 

Was the BZ Black Beauty sold only with the first issue, plain aluminum frame that was the under the first BZ cars (Ford GT/Ferrari)?   Did it come with the LRW frame at times? I seem to remember that we always thought they only came with the early frame, as they were cleaning out that leftover stock. Maybe later it was kind of agreed they used whatever they had in inventory just to use up what they had.

 

Original or some combination of parts and a repro body?

 

Philippe?

[Martin]

"Maybe Philippe can answer this question."

 

The model had two distinct chassis, the first being made from a tooling identical to that of the Classic Manta Ray. As legal issues came to be, BZ has a new chassis made using a gold-painted aluminum pressing with a polished aluminum drop arm, that was also used on other BZ models, the Ferrari 275P and the Ford GT, as well as the Little Red Wagon.

 

What do you want for $2500 an original?

[MattD]

 

Repop body from ED many years ago and a remastered repro box

[TSR]

Yes, the "Black Beauty" had two distinct chassis, the first shared with Classic, the second a proprietary design painted in gold.

Now, the car for sale on eBay is LIKELY NOT GENUINE. It is in fact a real BZ chassis but not the correct type, as the one shown has a spring on its drop arm, so is likely the type made for the BZ "Little Red Wagon." The other parts are mostly correct (save for the repro sticker on the motor and the non-original braided contacts)

But... the body is likely an Electric Dreams item, painted by us over 15 years ago or so before Scott Bader's acquisition of the company. How can one tell? Simple (and we did this on purpose to make sure that the collectors would not be fooled): the front 1/4 window post is left unpainted on the genuine article, and the Electric Dreams body has the post painted. So while someone could have painted the post with a hand brush, this car is likely not "real" and has but a fraction of the value of the real thing. So, beware if tempted.

Below, you can see two of the real things, and as you can see, the post is left unpainted and the masking job was not achieved with masking tape.



 

[MattD]

Thanks, Philippe. That was a long time ago!!

[MattD]

It was a long time ago when you made the repro series of BBs!

[A.P.]

Thank you for all the details about the BZ Black Beauty. I can say for sure now that my example is genuine vintage 1960s and not a repop. 

I have a question for TSR, please see this photo of two Black Beauty BZ slot cars. Another thing I have noticed over the years is some of the undersides have the tail lights painted red and some do not.

The top I believe is an authentic BZ, the bottom is painted so is that one also an Electric Dreams repop and repaint?

Thanks.

 

[TSR]

Hello John,

The top example appears to be authentic except for the guide flag. The "Jet Flag" did not even exist when the BZ model was produced. So it must have been replaced at one time, likely because of either wear or breakage of the original white Delrin flag.

The lower example is definitely one of the 250 reproduction models by Electric Dreams. There are some easy recognition signs: 1/4 front window post is painted, and the chassis does not bear the BZ markings.

[A.P.]

This is NOT my BZ Black Beauty and I have my opinion on whether this is original or a repro. For the experts on this board what can you tell me about the car and the box?  (sorry only image I have) Thanks 

Attached Images

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[MattD]

Looks like a box I did a few years ago, maybe.   Here is a picture I have.   Notice the left  inside of the box.   The back panel  doesn't cover the whole back of the box and there is a strip of white showing in the left corner.   Compare this to the box in your picture.

    The car I don't know about.

 

 

 

[TSR]

John Haig, Matt,
both cars and boxes are repros. Not that well done either: the first has wrong front wheels, the second the wrong door emblem. And that's before I can see what's inside! 


 

[A.P.]

Thanks for the replies.I found another shot of this same BZ Black Beauty car and the owner has stated this car and box is vintage 1966 original, which goes against your expert opinions. 

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[MattD]

John another member pointed out to me that the box in the above post does not have the small "R" in  circle at the end of the word "black" on the front of the box.    The following picture is of  the most  original box I have had.   It was made by ED  back in the 90's.   It was a  used  original box and you can see the "R" plainly in the picture.   Whoever made the above box left that out when they remastered it.     

 

 

Obviously for it to not have that it is a photo shopped copy.    

[A.P.]

Thanks for pointing out the "R" registered trademark mark.

 

MattD you said "The following picture is of  the most  original box I have had.   It was made by ED  back in the 90's"

 

?? so is that example a vintage 1966 original?  but then you said it was made in the 90's?? Please clarify...thanks

 

Here are some other saved photo examples of that repro box, the one showing the $6.95 written on price. I assume that if you see a box with this price written on and the exacting marks scuffs etc it is a Reproduction  made to look like a vintage distressed box.

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[A.P.]

and here is another with one the same $6.95 price,  if the inner plinth is removed you see the Electric Dreams stamp

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[TSR]

This is one of the earliest boxes Electric Dreams made in around 1994. They were all marked to make sure that people would know what they were getting.
Later boxes were made from a Photoshop cleaned example and looked like new boxes. They were also stamped inside.
ALL the 250 cars that were made by Electric Dreams have a reproduced body made of PETG, and have the quarter window post painted, again for the purpose of telling the real thing from the replica. The chassis were EDM wire cut, then stamped in a special tooling, and do not have the BZ logo at the back. All the other parts are genuine NOS: motor, wheels, gears and guide.

[MattD]

As you can tell from the photos, the first box I had came from ED and has the photo copied wear marks, the $6.95 price written on it and it has some tape glue on the back.

 

The most recent box I have is remastered by a friend using copies of my older box.   His remastered box does have the small R on the front.

     

 

If the ED box Philippe has had cleaned up has the "R" on front and the box my friend did has the "R" on front, that is two versions that have been cleaned up and are in circulation.   The above box does not have the "R", so there are at least 3 re-mastered versions of this box out there, not counting the original worn ED box. 

 

Lot of photo shop time for one old box!!!

 

The ED box I show, was  made in the 90's.   It was not made to look distressed, it was just the only box available back then. All that wear was on the original box Philippe had, and it all copied to the repro boxes.    We had a good friend in Ca. that cleaned up a lot of old boxes and was able to make the old stuff look like new, but that was a couple years down the line.

[TSR]

Matt,
that is correct. We of course have found far better examples since. What is good is that the 250 customers who bought our replicas of the "Black Beauty" and "Little red Wagon" were real happy, and we never got a single one back for a refund. This was of course 25 years ago now... 

[MattD]

I've always been happy with a reproduction of a car/packaging that is virtually impossible to find or requires so many $ that is  isn't really wise to invest in them and stick them away in a basement or a closet.        

 

[A.P.]

the original car in this topic has been listed several times and is now up for auction again with the following information added.

 

"BZ Green Hornet's Black Beauty Slot Car. I will only ship this car Priority mail insured, for full auction ending value. Note: I built this car many years back from parts that were available at that time... Please do not bid on this car if you have a problem with the way this car is presented. The chassis is a BZ with period correct parts except for the motor case decal which is reproduced.  I do not know who made the body but there are several companies that could take credit for it. The body is somewhere in the neighborhood of .020 to .030 in thickness.. The paint work was done by me and the decals are original water slide..."   

[MattD]

Seller is finally  admitting it is a repro and not trying to pass it off as an original, by not being specific about it's origins.   So it is a nice repro worth about $100-$150!   Lot of auctions like this on Ebay, though.   Buyer beware!.

[Gene/ZR1]

BZ Black Beauty Green Hornet

 

This body mold I worked on\off for a few months.

 

This version has nice panel outlines,some mods at the trunk area and added the front headlights  I think it looks neat if painted translucent green like the photo along with new front grills like the photo.

 

I think I will use a Classic Manta Ray chassis setup with some better looking wheels since I have nothing BZ.

 

Maybe I can find a repro BZ box to complete the project.

 

regards gene 

 

 

 

 

[TSR]

Hello Gene,
PM me, I can help with bits.

[MattD]

The repro car is listed again.   This time it is says it  was made from BZ parts available in the 90's, or something like that.   He's trying to call it original without actually saying it.   It's a still a $100-$125 reproduction.    Buyer beware, as always.