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What is your favorite motor from the 1960 to 1969 decade?


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#61 mdiv

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 08:40 AM

My goodness! Look at these great stories!

Rock on fellas, rock on!!

- Mike

:laugh2: :blush: :wub: :shok: :blink:
Mike DiVuolo

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#62 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 08:48 AM

Philippe,

It may have been the La Ganke, but I could almost swear when my dad bought it for me at the Fort Pierce raceway that it came in a Champion box, and I know it came with all three of the adaptors. I know it was a nice aluminum and steel fixture that would fit all the 16D-36D armatures, and it didn't have a wind counter. I could set it up in my small vise I had on my workbench in the storage room outside and wind to my hearts content. Anyway, that was over 40 years ago so my memory was a little fuzzy on the make. Sorry about that :blush: . I still had it in my slot box when my ex and I separated and I know it's no longer around because the nasty lady got rid of all my stuff for spite. I quit using it when I started to run wing cars. They could do a better job on the factory arms at Mura than I could. I wish I still had it though, just as a remembrance of the stuff my dad use to do for me in this great hobby.

Don, that controller may have been a Classic. I know the body of the controller was blue plastic with a metal base and suction cup feet and the handle was blue plastic with the stainless steel plunger and cable. You are right, when I got it the lightweight resistors were the first thing to go. I took the resistors out of my MRCs (and for the life of me I can't remember what brand they were, the raceway in Satellite beach sold them and they came in a white labeled bag), cobbled and shaped a piece of aircraft aluminum into the bottom of the unit for a large heatsink (it was nice having Piper Aircraft in Vero Beach. Lots of dads could get you scrap aircraft aluminum for such projects). I adapted a couple of Cox plungers and contract buttons and found a lighter return spring for the unit. If you tried to use it for an extended time, your hand either got very sore or you got muscles in that arm like you wouldn't believe. That stock spring was stout and housed in between the resistors in the base unit. My dad even helped me fabricate a fibreglass handle to put the plunger into that was more comfortable. All in all, it looked very outlandish for the time, but it worked and I didn't have to worry about holding a smoking controller. With the extra large aluminum heatsink, the resistors stayed cool. And my dad even thought about something back then that didn't come into vogue for some time. Instead of using fuse wire, we used a 10 amp automotive fuse (buss bar type). Worked rather well for quite a few years.

Don, on my rewinds, I usually used wire length for a consistent ohm reading going pole to pole. I would wind one pole, take it off and measure it, then cut the other wires to the same length. I found that by doing this my motor performance was more consistent. The silver solder gave me the strength I needed, and when all was done, it got a good epoxy dip and bake.

Man, all this stuff is bringing me back down memory lane.

Michael
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#63 TSR

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:12 AM

... that was over 40 years ago so my memory was a little fuzzy on the make.

Don't ever apologize for being young! I wish I could remember 25% of what the heck I did then... :laugh2:

Don is correct on the controller; if it was a commercially-produced do-ickey, Classic is the right pick.

If it was a homemade job, looks like someone used the typical bicycle handle and heavy-duty switch and probably using spare Towerstat resistors since one could get them in many resistances. :)
Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#64 mdiv

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:16 AM

FYI one of our bloggers here does arm winding... havileck.

- Mike
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#65 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:32 AM

The controller was definitely bought at the raceway new, so it probably was a Classic. It didn't take on that "homemade appeal" until after I got finished with it :laugh2: .

All I know it, the blue plastic body that surrounded it had lots of air holes in it, and that base was heavy, even with the aircraft aluminum heatsink. I know once I had it the way I wanted it, I never had to do anything to it again, not even a fuse.

Then when I started running wing cars, I went to a Parma with the lowest resistor that I could get and had a machinist friend make me up this gawdawful-looking heatsink to go on the resistor... used that for ages... had it with me at the '88 Nats in Washington.

Michael
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#66 Prof. Fate

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 12:36 PM

Hi,

Your double 30 was effectively a 27. It is rules manipulations like that that get you banned from the track... but fun.

The idea behind a double is that the smaller wire makes it easier to get ONE more turn and a neater coil out of the really hot winds.

I learned to build motors and wind from my dad before the fad phase. He did a stint as a military electronics instructor. So, when I was doing things for the slot cars, he was all agressive with me about doing things "the right way". Often racing with other military types, he didn't want me showing up and looking "unprofessional" in front of them.

So, it was always length, though being good about the turns reduced the amount of material needed for the balancing.

And I had the advantage of HIS bench having racks of tools and supplies. Once did a wind based on wire color. The track was trying to control the rewinding by requiring arms with what seemed to him to be a unique color of sorta red. So, I bought the arm(another 65/30), and sat at my dad's bench and found a matching 29!

The trick is to NOT look that fast when beating on the rules.

When Group 12 was formulated in '68, the cheap rule was "any unbalanced arm". The conventional wisdom was that without being balanced, that was about as hot a wind as would survive with novices. Ironically, as the tracks were closing, they would, in a last desparate spasm looking to survive, have promotional races with money and prizes WITH Group 12 restrictions to bring in the kids and novices.

In my area there were several people who could wind 29s that would live. And a couple of us were doing 28s and using epoxy to balance. The chassis of choice was the Dynamic anglewinder.

We all knew who we were!

Fate
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#67 Marty Stanley

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 02:28 PM

Fate,

I wasn't worried about getting banned from the track, I was just having fun. If I was in a position to win the race, I would have come up with a graceful way of having my car incapable of not finishing the race. As "Fate" would have it though, the arm decided to expire so I had a natural out. I must say the lap that it expired on was very fast. Almost like hitting the nitrous button on a Hayabusa at the beginning of the powerband! Hold on!

Back in the '60s I was an electronics student. We had just been studying parallel circuits and I was just applying my obtained knowledge. Since in a parallel circuit you can determine the resistance by the formula of R1 X R2 / R1 + R2 we know that the total resistance is half of what the original resistance was, however the same amount of turns was on the arm so the value of magnetic flux was not diminished.

You are very correct in your calculation of those #30 AWG doubles being the same resistance of #27 AWG. I've never been able to fit 70 something turns of #27 AWG wire on a motor. Trust me, I've tried!

The triple winds were even more agressive. You had to pick and choose the tracks where you ran them. If the power wasn't being provided by a huge battery, they would not run properly. However, find a track with outstanding power and they would literally fly!

Actually, it was "literal rules interpretation 101 as taught by Smokey Yunick" in building that motor. Smokey said the rules were to have the same number and same AWG size on that arm. Mine did! I like to think I contributed to the sealed motors we run today!
Marty Stanley aka Florida Slotter
"A Double '60s Slot Racer"
I raced then and am 60 now!
The Raceway - Team Racer

#68 don.siegel

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 04:11 PM

Great stories guys!

My dad was a social worker and I was an English Lit student, but I kind of learned to rewind anyway... doesn't the number of turns also have an influence on the performance, and not just the total length? That was my idea, anyway, when I tried to have them both match up....

Don

#69 TSR

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 06:49 PM

It is the number of turns, not the length that creates the magnetic field. Of course the length is important too as fas as resistance, but not as important. Best is to have the shortest length for the number of turns... hence double winds that take less space on the stack... :)
Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#70 Marty Stanley

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:41 PM

TSR,

You are so right!

The numbers of turns of wire is what makes the power. It's been a long time since DC motors 101, but I seem to remember this formula that you can determine the amount of Electro Magnetic Force of a DC motor if you know the number of turns, the wire size and the amount of current passed through the wire.

The amount of current through those windings determines the amount of torque that the motor produces.

Many folks back in the 60's were running double and some even triple winds. The idea was to get more current flowing through the maximum number of winds you could fit on the stack. Using a double wind of 2 x 35 winds of #30 AWG will give you the same current as 35 winds of #27. However you have a total of 70 wraps of wire, so the resulting power is greater. I do believe the dyslexic brother of Mho, who wrote the book on electronic resistance theory, actually proven as a law, aka Ohm's Law, stated that when you have a parallel resistance and there are two paths for current to flow, the resistance can be calculated as Rt=R1xR2 / R1+R2. So if we have two wraps of #30 AWG of 10 ohms, effectively we have 5 ohms of resistance or the same as a single wrap of #27 AWG.

Then came the triple winds. This is where it got really hairy. I can remember melting many endbells before I started to find out if you use smaller diameter wire, you can get the max number of turns and still have little resistance. I went back and asked Ohm about it. He said thusly . . . . .

1/Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3


So, if we were able to fit 3 wraps of #30 AWG on the motor and each one had a resistance of 10 ohms, because of the 3 parallel paths the effective resistance would be 3.3 ohms or the equivalent of about #25 AWG, but you still have the large number of wraps. A lot of folks started going with smaller wire so they could fit more wraps on the arms. However with the extra current flow, that wire got really hot, kind of almost like a filament in a light bulb!

They were short lived motors, but very, very fast!

Perhaps some day we will have an open class where we can really get fired up about building chassis, painting bodies and winding motors! Ah yes, a return to the days of yesteryear!
Marty Stanley aka Florida Slotter
"A Double '60s Slot Racer"
I raced then and am 60 now!
The Raceway - Team Racer

#71 mdiv

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:48 PM

Great information and stories, all! This young lad is impressed!

- Mike
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#72 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:12 AM

Oman,

I was reading through the post where they have the vintage Model Car Racing News magazines posted, and saw the February 1966 issue there and decided to scan through it. Wow, I saw a Monogram set that I actually had as a kid. It was the Monogram Two Timer kit, with the Tiger inline chassis and the Super X220 motor with the Cobra Daytona Coupe body and the Lola T70 body. As I remember right the Cobra Coupe was a gorgeous blue color and the Lola was kind of a Blue/Green paint job, and my favorite body was the Cobra Daytona coupe. I think I used the Tiger chassis for the Lola Body, and actually migrated the Cobra body over to an extra Cox chassis that I had that had a Mura motor in it in sidewinder fashion. I ran this setup in the super class we ran on Friday nights and that Cobra body was just a dynamite handler. The tiger chassis did very well in the stock class and I trophied a few times on Saturday nights with it also cause that X220 motor was a pretty stout stock motor for its day in the stock class.

Anyone else have one of these old Monogram or Revell kits and love them like I did. They were a real bargain back in the day.

Mike Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#73 Marty Stanley

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:25 AM

Mike,

Is this what you be talking about?

Posted Image


Marty Stanley aka Florida Slotter
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I raced then and am 60 now!
The Raceway - Team Racer

#74 TSR

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:33 AM

Nope, that is a Revell Lola T70 RTR. The Monogram model was medium metallic green, not blue. It is still fairly easy to find in mint condition in both the double kit with the Cobra 427 coupe, as well as in RTR form using a different stamped aluminum sidewinder chassis instead of the built-up brass inline of the double kit. :)
Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#75 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:38 AM

Marty,

Very similar car, but not the same. The Monogram cars at the time were a little more highly detailed and actually came with detailed drivers if I remember correctly which is why their kits and setups were more to my liking at the time. The two body kit was the only one I remember that came with the inline chassis as Philippe said. The sidewinder chassis that the RTR kits came with wasn't my favorite sidewinder chassis as I tended to like the Cox version better at the time.

Mike Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#76 TSR

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:10 AM

Mike,
The Revell model came with a detailed driver too... :) And the Revell Halibrand wheels looked a LOT better than the Monogram plain-Jane wheels with chromed plastic Cooper inserts...
Also the shape of the Revell Lola body was a lot more accurate and a lot more pleasant to the eye than Monogram's well finished but rather crudely shaped T70 body with no undercuts, looking like a cheap modern pseudo-vintage vac-formed body, names withhold to protect the guilty.
In this writer's opinion of course...
Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#77 mdiv

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:29 AM

FYI, I got my globe SS-91 and I am very happy with it! :)

- Mike
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#78 mdiv

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:20 PM

Dokk,

How is "The Book" coming along?

- Mikey

Mike,
The Revell model came with a detailed driver too... :) And the Revell Halibrand wheels looked a LOT better than the Monogram plain-Jane wheels with chromed plastic Cooper inserts...
Also the shape of the Revell Lola body was a lot more accurate and a lot more pleasant to the eye than Monogram's well finished but rather crudely shaped T70 body with no undercuts, looking like a cheap modern pseudo-vintage vac-formed body, names withhold to protect the guilty.
In this writer's opinion of course...


Mike DiVuolo

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#79 don.siegel

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 06:30 AM

To get back to the original subject, here's another motor that fascinated me - and was one of the first I tried to find when I started collecting.

Pretty incredible, actually, in mid-1966 Ram was still trying to sell an open-frame type motor, when these were pretty much totally outdated (and I think they were already selling their own versions of the Mabuchi by then as well, not to mention the Ram-Boochi conversion).

Posted Image

And here's the first motor I found, which I used in the first vintage model I built when I started collecting in the early 90s - excellent running car, but I think their RPM figures are a bit "exaggerated", to say the least.... It's a bit faster than the regular Pittman DC706, etc. models, and kind of competitive with a standard 36D, but that's about all.... Still, I'm already on my second set of brushes with this car, have had to resolder the axle gear (it's got a fair amount of torque), etc.... (sorry about the photo quality).

Posted Image

Don

#80 mdiv

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 10:36 AM

Totally cool Don, totally cool!!! :)

- Mikey
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#81 Prof. Fate

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 11:32 AM

Hi

I have talked about the plate chassis with 704-6 I used to run before commercial tracks. As a kid in a military family, I couldn't just have cars on shelves like most folk. I was restricted to a footlocker because of the move upcoming. So, cars from the period got disassembled when not run, the chassis stacted tightly in a box or several. Some were taken apart and the parts used in later projects. And the wheels in anothe, and motors in another. All for a very heavy compact storage.

The initial way I got into the collector side of things was finding the parts I needed to restore cars that had "loaned" parts to later projects!

So, a few years ago, Al Schwartz, Ecurie Martini, was chatting with me about the 704/club era that we both played in. And for the convention, we started restoring our cars. I had aquired a new resin body of the Maserati 450 from Resiliant Resins that was close, but not enough, to fit surviving frames. So, I copied my frame out of a surviving car that currently had a Maserati 300s Dubro body.

Long way of getting to the point. I was rushed for time, and opened up the box of 704s, and grabbed a motor. I am NOW convinced that I had aquired an XL500. I THOUGHT it was the cheaper strombeker clone that I remembered buying because it was cheaper. But it is stronger than either on the track. Its speed ONLY shows up on a LONG straight, but it shows.

I don't remember buying it, though.

I sort of feel that this type of motor really does deserve being used under a glas or resin body of a 50s sports car!

Fate
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#82 don.siegel

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 05:26 PM

Thanks for the souvenir Rocky. In any case, the XL-500 is the only motor of this type with a 3-pole arm, so it can't be confused with the Pittmans or a Strombecker - and it has pretty hefty wire too! Just eyeballing it, I would say 28 or 29...

i'll have to try mine on a long track one of these days...

Don

#83 Prof. Fate

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 11:56 AM

Thanks for the souvenir Rocky. In any case, the XL-500 is the only motor of this type with a 3-pole arm, so it can't be confused with the Pittmans or a Strombecker - and it has pretty hefty wire too! Just eyeballing it, I would say 28 or 29...

i'll have to try mine on a long track one of these days...

Don


Hi
Like I said, I don't remember buying one or doing a serious autopsy on one. This one has 5 poles, and looks a wire size better than the 706. One of those cases where I DON'T remember the wind. When the commercial track arrived in North Carolina, I did a series of re-gear, re-winds on the side trying to get the layout to work. And I just don't remember. I should sit down for five minutes and look.

In that period, spring-summer of 64, scratchbuilds so quickly took over, as did rewinds and vac bodies that the track was fond of giving stock like kits and obsolete motors as "additional prizes". I may have aquired it that way and just tossed it in the box!

Being a pack rat is a terrible thing.

Fate
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#84 endbelldrive

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 05:10 PM

I've fantasized about owning a Pittman motor...any Pittman motor for the last 45 years! I recently manage to score a couple of them and matching bevel crown and pinion gear sets along with a load of Weldun 64 pitch spurs and 1/8" bore pinions for the larger DC65s and 85s. :yahoo:

The first real motors I owned were can drive Mabuchi 16Ds that were rebuilt as endbell drives. My daily driver in the late 60s was a two hole Lenz A can with the black endbell. That thing had the snot rebuilt out of it and was raced for over a year. B)
Bob Suzuki

#85 mcseitz

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 08:08 AM

The track where I raced as a kid held a dim view on rewinding. Stock Champion 601s and later 603s (?) were the motor of choice. But they also allowed 16ds. My hottest stock motor ever was a 16d Cox Super Nascar that SCREAMED! Must have been a production fluke where everthing balanced and timed perfectly. Put it in a Cuc that left everthing in the dust on our long strait. Too bad it handled like a Cuc in the turns. Also a shame the bearings were so weak.
mcseitz
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#86 TSR

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 08:36 AM

Marcus,
To repeat myself, there were never any "603"s. Champion had the "601" stock motor, a plain-Jane "selected" Mabuchi FT16. From there it went straight to the rewound, balanced and ARCO'ed "607".
Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#87 Hworth08

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 08:56 AM

As I remember the out-of-the-box 26D motors, The Champion was the fastest at first, most likely because Champion selected the best ones and reworked the others.

Later the Mabuchi boxed, double-shafted was the best as Mabuchi probably sold only the best "sounding" motors under their own name.
Don Hollingsworth

#88 mcseitz

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 09:30 AM

I certainly concede that what I know about the history of slot racing and Champion motors wouldn't fit into the tip of your pinkie. I have read with relish your history of Champion motors. But the track I was racing built their program around obsolete NOS Champion products well into the early 70s. The track owner claimed to have purchased Champion's entire inventory of inline jailhouse chassis after anglewinders took over and that's what we raced along with nos Cox iso kits. We were mostly restricted to stock 601s. When the supply ran out of those we switched to a nearly identical Champion motor that cost about $.50 more @ $3.75, and a sticker that was printed "603." We never had the hotter 607s and I frankly never knew about them until reading your piece a few years back. I don't think any of my old motors or clear plastic cases have any confirming stickers left on them at all but I will check. Please consider the possibility we were getting inventory that was never really released back in the 60s and 603s may, just may, have been part of Champion's obscure unsold leftover stock that we were using up.


mcseitz - If I were making this up I would inject a lot more drama....
Marcus Seitz

#89 don.siegel

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 10:30 AM

Interesting story Marcus; I do have a vague memory of a 603, but I may be confusing that with the 503 and 703, Champion's first generation 16D and 36D rewinds; I'll try to remember to look through my documents tonight to see if there's any trace of this model number...

Do you realize that you guys were racing thousands of dollars worth of NOS cars at the time?

Don

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 11:29 AM

Marcus, your memory is failing you. There never was a "603".
There were "503"s and "703"s. Never a "603". The FT26 Champion numbering went straight from the "601" (to match the "501" and "701" Mabuchi-made FT16D and FT36D stock motors) to "607" to match the "507" and "707" in production at the time. You see, there is a logic to this: while the 501 was rewound to 502 and 503 versions, then directly to the 507, the earlier 701 went through all the numbers until the 707. But when the FT26 was issued by Mabuchi, ALL previous versions of the 500 and 700 series except for the STOCK 501 and 701 and their ultimate versions, the 507 and 707, were obsolete and out of production. Hence Champion simply MATCHED the 500 and 700 then current numbers by calling the stock FT26 a "601" and the ONLY Champion-rewound version of the Mabuchi-made FT26 motors the "607".

There never were a "602", "603" or any other versions between the "601" and "607"
Of course shortly after the "607" came out, Champion made their own non-Mabuchi cans for the 500 and 600 series and called them "517" and "617". Another story altogether. :)

The track owner claimed to have purchased Champion's entire inventory of inline jailhouse chassis after anglewinders took over

Your track owner was full of it. Champion still had plenty of the inline chassis available as late as 1972 and was selling them in cheap "Econo-Kit" with clear bodies, with tires and no motor, until that eventually sold out in the mid-1970's. The inline chassis remained in the Champion catalogs for a long time after the angle-winder chassis came out as production items. REH then received ALL the remaining inventories and sold them over many years.
Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"





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