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What is your favorite motor from the 1960 to 1969 decade?


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#51 mdiv

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 01:05 PM

GREAT story, Rocky! :)

- Mike

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#52 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 10:42 AM

I can remember getting into the hobby when I was a kid in Vero Beach, FL. We had a local track and for the life of me can't remember what it was, but I do know it was an AMR. I was running a hardbody Chaparral with a Mabuchi 16D, and ran it for the longest time. I got my older brother interested in it, and for kicks, he went up to the owner one night, and bought me a new model of a Mabucc hi type motor called a Mura... and the rest is history. I put that Mura motor in the Chaparral, put on some better foam tires, some new fronts, lowered it a ton, and proceeded to run in the races on Saturday night and started winning. Now the hot setups at the time were still the guys running the rewound Globe motors in their special homemade chassis and stuff, but the little Mura would hold its own.

I then got interested in how motors worked, and started rewinding 36D motors that I had in three-piece Dynamic chassis. These things were the bomb and fun to run. That track closed down, and I ran in Fort Pierce, FL, on their American black until it closed down.

After that I ran at the track in Satellite Beach, FL. They had a Sebring copy, I think it was, and a Daytona Oval and another track that I can't remember. It was there I got introduced to the new Champion 26D and I really started getting into the rewinding of those suckers. I didn't go much for the dewinding, though it did make a quicker motor. I was using the Champion rewinding wire and experimenting with wild 27, 28, and 29 winds. Had to beef up my controller to handle some of them, but man, they were rockets. Boy, I could make a screamer with one of those motors in a stocker chassis and regularly won in the stocker class running Chevy Impala bodies at the time.

Yeah, I burned a few 26Ds and 36Ds up doing my experimenting, but it was fun showing up with a motor that you put together yourself and watch the pained expression on the other guys as this young high school kid just smiled and passed you and your $70 car with his $20 POS.

I really miss those old days of the 26D and 36D Mabuchi motors, Arco 33 magnets, and Mura 16D arms that would just scream, and bodies that would take a shot and not come apart. Those were great days of racing... Then I got into Wing Car racing... but that's another story

Mike Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#53 mdiv

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 11:04 AM

Great story, Mike! Thank you for sharing! :)

- Mike

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#54 Marty Stanley

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 02:32 PM

Mike,

Hey there, now I know you're an old rewinder too!

One of the tracks I raced at, Mini Wheels, in Highland Park, NJ, had one of those 220 foot lap length AMCRA "Purple" behemoths. There was a race scheduled for the upcoming Friday night and Tag Powell gave us motors for the race. We were told that the original wire, and all the wraps must be on the armature for the car to be considered legal.

Hey, those 26D motors ran good enough, but I guess when someone stipulates rules like that, it just sets me to find a way to get around them. We were told we could "bulletproof" the motors, balance them, or do whatever else we wanted to as long as the original wire was still on the arm for the race. I sat and thought for awhile and then it hit me.

I quickly disassembled the motor and started to unwind one of the arm segments. I believe it was #30 or #31 wire and about 70 something wraps on it. All I did was do a quick divide by 2 and decided that I would make two wraps of 30 something on each pole of the arm. After getting the first pole done, the other two were a snap. After making my "double wind" out of a stock motor, it was time to drench it in epoxy, wrap several turns of thread around the wires from the commutator to the arm, and since Mom was not home, time to use the oven to cure the epoxy. Once that was done, I put the arm on my set of double-edged razor blades and did the balance job of a lifetime. After the balance job I assembled the motor and installed it into the car I was going to race.

Friday night came around quickly and we were doing warm-ups. I did not run full throttle during the warm-ups as I knew the car was going to be very fast just by the feel I was getting from my MRC thumb-operated controller. When the race started, I kind of laid back to make sure everyone got through the first turn without incident and then started my moves. The field had just entered "the turbo zone" and I went wide open throttle. I had never seen a car accelerate like that before in my life. I jumped out in front of everyone and had about a quarter lap lead after the first lap. However with my limited engineering skills at the time, I really did not take longevity into account. That motor was fast - kind of like a qualifying motor should be. However it did not do very well in the long race. I think it started to show some bad signs - smell, heat, and such about 100 laps into the race.

After the race I was asked to explain what I did to the motor to make it so fast. Of course I was told I rewound the motor, but I showed that I used the same exact wire that came on the motor and the same number of turns. I mean 36 and 36 does equal 72 does it not? So I did adhere to the rules that were given.

Yep, that was fun.

Of course that also sparked my interest in doing multi-winds on motors. I found some silver wire, which is a better conductor than copper wire. I had one wind with #27, #28, and #29 wires on it. What a beast!

I no longer have my winding machine, but kind of wish I did. It might prove to be interesting doing some of those things once again.
Marty Stanley
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#55 gascarnut

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 02:37 PM

I remember doing that with some Champion 501 16D motors.

I found out about blown commutators from that... :D

Dennis Samson
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#56 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 08:40 PM

I never had too much luck with the double winds working very well, so I stuck mainly with single winds, mainly going with larger diameter wire with less turns for more torque. As for wrapping the winds with thread, I never could find anything that worked well. I just got out my hobby paint brushes, mixed up a batch of Elmer's Epoxy, heated the arms in toaster oven, then applied the epoxy, and set it to dry. Did the balancing thing after the arm cured for a couple of days. None of my stuff was ever very pretty, but it worked for me. I had one of the Champion of Chamblee rewinding fixtures with the crank and all, but I found on the 36D motors that I just did the winding by hand and it gave me a better feel. Finding silver solder back then was a real pain for soldering the wires to the comms, but I got lucky and found a girlfriend whose dad was a jeweler, so that worked out.

Biggest thing was finding a controller that would handle the really off-the-wall winds. Forget about using a standard Cox or MRC controller, though I did modify an MRC controller to use a double wiper mechanism that didn't work bad. Best thing I found, and for the life of me I can't remember who made it, was a wierd contraption of a controller that I got at the raceway in Satellite Beach. It use a long thumb-operated cable type mechanism, similar to the remote shutter release on an old 35mm camera, and that part attached to the box that held dual resistors. Everything was spring-loaded and it was a sight to see, but I modified it greatly, put in a large aluminum heat sink in the bottom; it had two resistors one 1.5 ohm and a 3 ohm with a heavy duty switch to change between the two. The box stuck to the control side of the track with suction cups on the bottom and it looked ungodly as heck. But that sucker worked and I could run my motors without them overheating. I want to say that is was made by Dynamic, but my memory from forty years ago ain't that good. I used that till I grew up went into my next phase running wing cars, then switched over to a highly modified Parma setup.

Those were the days... you made your own stuff... and learned how to make it work for you.

Mike Rigsby
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#57 TSR

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 10:09 PM

I had one of the Champion of Chamblee rewinding fixtures with the crank and all...

Mike,
You could not have had such a device, because Champion never made one or sold one.

You could only have had one of the only two ever sold: a La Ganke (the most popular sold in the thousands, even Bob Green of Mura used one) or the very rare Dyna-Rewind unit that was very expensive and had a turn counter.

Anything else you would have had would have been handmade. :)

#58 mdiv

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 10:23 PM

Now THESE be some great stories! :)

Thanks, fellas!

- Mike

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#59 don.siegel

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 03:00 AM

Mike,

That controller may have been the Classic model, since they made one with a remote box for the dual resistors, and a thumb-operated cable release type thing. I think it was available in 15-25 and 7-15 ohms, but you must have modified it for the lower resistance... These come up on ebay occasionally so keep an eye open (or some nice person will post a picture). Otherwise, it could have been a locally-made unit.

Don

PS: Speaking of rewinds, did you guys use turns or length? On my best motors I used both, and tried to get all the poles to come out equal...

#60 stoo23

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 03:40 AM

Well, from an older Aussie's point of view... I would have to cast my vote with all the other 26D rewind "addicts" here! :)

What great fun they were and as many others have also noted, they also sounded great!!

Hey... someone mention "B" motors!!?? :) :)

Unbelievably... they were actually quite popular here in Australia. In fact, a lot of guys ran them almost exclusively!! Why?... I have no idea... as I had never seen motors get so HOT!!! LOL!!

Mind you... I did acquire a pink B motor that had one of those "Ceramacoat" arms, that had that Green coating all over the windings. This one was a 23# and proved to be one of the nicest arms I ever owned! It was not particularly neat, but it did appear that someone had spent some time balancing it and it was to this day, one of the smoothest, vibration-free, and dead quiet motors I have ever owned!!

I never ran it in the dreaded B-can, but in my normal Mura setups. I ran that arm until I couldn't true the comm any more!! Never had it rebalanced and it used to just get to a certain heat and sort of stay there... a truly lovely arm!! (Anyone have any idea how many turns those things had?)

Now I know I have some old blank 26D arms and Kirkwood comms somewhere... :D ... Oddly, I have actually managed to still have most of my old 26D stuff! Guess I must have had a certain 'connection' that caused me to keep them.

Would actually be rather fun to try a few arms and have them properly balanced... all my early ones were statically balanced only... and as someone else put so aptly, they often ONLY just made the length of the race... if I was lucky!! LOL!!

I do remember running quite a few double winds with some success. Had a 27/28 dbl that was a beauty, along with one particular 25 of 25 that didn't detonate!! But I tended to run quite a few 26# winds, as I had some very nice silver wire in that guage, that made for really nice motors for our flat track at the time.

Ahh... the memories... the smell of oil of wintergreen, STP, and other concoctions... mixed, often liberally, with that acrid, "known only too well", pungent smell of melting endbells and/or windings...

Was always great fun when they caught on fire, eh!?? :D
Stewart Amos

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#61 mdiv

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 08:40 AM

My goodness! Look at these great stories!

Rock on fellas, rock on!!

- Mike

:laugh2: :blush: :wub: :shok: :blink:

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#62 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 08:48 AM

Philippe,

It may have been the La Ganke, but I could almost swear when my dad bought it for me at the Fort Pierce raceway that it came in a Champion box, and I know it came with all three of the adaptors. I know it was a nice aluminum and steel fixture that would fit all the 16D-36D armatures, and it didn't have a wind counter. I could set it up in my small vise I had on my workbench in the storage room outside and wind to my hearts content. Anyway, that was over 40 years ago so my memory was a little fuzzy on the make. Sorry about that :blush: . I still had it in my slot box when my ex and I separated and I know it's no longer around because the nasty lady got rid of all my stuff for spite. I quit using it when I started to run wing cars. They could do a better job on the factory arms at Mura than I could. I wish I still had it though, just as a remembrance of the stuff my dad use to do for me in this great hobby.

Don, that controller may have been a Classic. I know the body of the controller was blue plastic with a metal base and suction cup feet and the handle was blue plastic with the stainless steel plunger and cable. You are right, when I got it the lightweight resistors were the first thing to go. I took the resistors out of my MRCs (and for the life of me I can't remember what brand they were, the raceway in Satellite beach sold them and they came in a white labeled bag), cobbled and shaped a piece of aircraft aluminum into the bottom of the unit for a large heatsink (it was nice having Piper Aircraft in Vero Beach. Lots of dads could get you scrap aircraft aluminum for such projects). I adapted a couple of Cox plungers and contract buttons and found a lighter return spring for the unit. If you tried to use it for an extended time, your hand either got very sore or you got muscles in that arm like you wouldn't believe. That stock spring was stout and housed in between the resistors in the base unit. My dad even helped me fabricate a fibreglass handle to put the plunger into that was more comfortable. All in all, it looked very outlandish for the time, but it worked and I didn't have to worry about holding a smoking controller. With the extra large aluminum heatsink, the resistors stayed cool. And my dad even thought about something back then that didn't come into vogue for some time. Instead of using fuse wire, we used a 10 amp automotive fuse (buss bar type). Worked rather well for quite a few years.

Don, on my rewinds, I usually used wire length for a consistent ohm reading going pole to pole. I would wind one pole, take it off and measure it, then cut the other wires to the same length. I found that by doing this my motor performance was more consistent. The silver solder gave me the strength I needed, and when all was done, it got a good epoxy dip and bake.

Man, all this stuff is bringing me back down memory lane.

Michael
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#63 TSR

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:12 AM

... that was over 40 years ago so my memory was a little fuzzy on the make.

Don't ever apologize for being young! I wish I could remember 25% of what the heck I did then... :laugh2:

Don is correct on the controller; if it was a commercially-produced do-ickey, Classic is the right pick.

If it was a homemade job, looks like someone used the typical bicycle handle and heavy-duty switch and probably using spare Towerstat resistors since one could get them in many resistances. :)

#64 mdiv

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:16 AM

FYI one of our bloggers here does arm winding... havileck.

- Mike

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#65 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:32 AM

The controller was definitely bought at the raceway new, so it probably was a Classic. It didn't take on that "homemade appeal" until after I got finished with it :laugh2: .

All I know it, the blue plastic body that surrounded it had lots of air holes in it, and that base was heavy, even with the aircraft aluminum heatsink. I know once I had it the way I wanted it, I never had to do anything to it again, not even a fuse.

Then when I started running wing cars, I went to a Parma with the lowest resistor that I could get and had a machinist friend make me up this gawdawful-looking heatsink to go on the resistor... used that for ages... had it with me at the '88 Nats in Washington.

Michael
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#66 Prof. Fate

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 12:36 PM

Hi,

Your double 30 was effectively a 27. It is rules manipulations like that that get you banned from the track... but fun.

The idea behind a double is that the smaller wire makes it easier to get ONE more turn and a neater coil out of the really hot winds.

I learned to build motors and wind from my dad before the fad phase. He did a stint as a military electronics instructor. So, when I was doing things for the slot cars, he was all agressive with me about doing things "the right way". Often racing with other military types, he didn't want me showing up and looking "unprofessional" in front of them.

So, it was always length, though being good about the turns reduced the amount of material needed for the balancing.

And I had the advantage of HIS bench having racks of tools and supplies. Once did a wind based on wire color. The track was trying to control the rewinding by requiring arms with what seemed to him to be a unique color of sorta red. So, I bought the arm(another 65/30), and sat at my dad's bench and found a matching 29!

The trick is to NOT look that fast when beating on the rules.

When Group 12 was formulated in '68, the cheap rule was "any unbalanced arm". The conventional wisdom was that without being balanced, that was about as hot a wind as would survive with novices. Ironically, as the tracks were closing, they would, in a last desparate spasm looking to survive, have promotional races with money and prizes WITH Group 12 restrictions to bring in the kids and novices.

In my area there were several people who could wind 29s that would live. And a couple of us were doing 28s and using epoxy to balance. The chassis of choice was the Dynamic anglewinder.

We all knew who we were!

Fate
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#67 Marty Stanley

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 02:28 PM

Fate,

I wasn't worried about getting banned from the track, I was just having fun. If I was in a position to win the race, I would have come up with a graceful way of having my car incapable of not finishing the race. As "Fate" would have it though, the arm decided to expire so I had a natural out. I must say the lap that it expired on was very fast. Almost like hitting the nitrous button on a Hayabusa at the beginning of the powerband! Hold on!

Back in the '60s I was an electronics student. We had just been studying parallel circuits and I was just applying my obtained knowledge. Since in a parallel circuit you can determine the resistance by the formula of R1 X R2 / R1 + R2 we know that the total resistance is half of what the original resistance was, however the same amount of turns was on the arm so the value of magnetic flux was not diminished.

You are very correct in your calculation of those #30 AWG doubles being the same resistance of #27 AWG. I've never been able to fit 70 something turns of #27 AWG wire on a motor. Trust me, I've tried!

The triple winds were even more agressive. You had to pick and choose the tracks where you ran them. If the power wasn't being provided by a huge battery, they would not run properly. However, find a track with outstanding power and they would literally fly!

Actually, it was "literal rules interpretation 101 as taught by Smokey Yunick" in building that motor. Smokey said the rules were to have the same number and same AWG size on that arm. Mine did! I like to think I contributed to the sealed motors we run today!
Marty Stanley
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#68 don.siegel

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 04:11 PM

Great stories guys!

My dad was a social worker and I was an English Lit student, but I kind of learned to rewind anyway... doesn't the number of turns also have an influence on the performance, and not just the total length? That was my idea, anyway, when I tried to have them both match up....

Don

#69 TSR

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 06:49 PM

It is the number of turns, not the length that creates the magnetic field. Of course the length is important too as fas as resistance, but not as important. Best is to have the shortest length for the number of turns... hence double winds that take less space on the stack... :)

#70 Marty Stanley

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:41 PM

TSR,

You are so right!

The numbers of turns of wire is what makes the power. It's been a long time since DC motors 101, but I seem to remember this formula that you can determine the amount of Electro Magnetic Force of a DC motor if you know the number of turns, the wire size and the amount of current passed through the wire.

The amount of current through those windings determines the amount of torque that the motor produces.

Many folks back in the 60's were running double and some even triple winds. The idea was to get more current flowing through the maximum number of winds you could fit on the stack. Using a double wind of 2 x 35 winds of #30 AWG will give you the same current as 35 winds of #27. However you have a total of 70 wraps of wire, so the resulting power is greater. I do believe the dyslexic brother of Mho, who wrote the book on electronic resistance theory, actually proven as a law, aka Ohm's Law, stated that when you have a parallel resistance and there are two paths for current to flow, the resistance can be calculated as Rt=R1xR2 / R1+R2. So if we have two wraps of #30 AWG of 10 ohms, effectively we have 5 ohms of resistance or the same as a single wrap of #27 AWG.

Then came the triple winds. This is where it got really hairy. I can remember melting many endbells before I started to find out if you use smaller diameter wire, you can get the max number of turns and still have little resistance. I went back and asked Ohm about it. He said thusly . . . . .

1/Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3


So, if we were able to fit 3 wraps of #30 AWG on the motor and each one had a resistance of 10 ohms, because of the 3 parallel paths the effective resistance would be 3.3 ohms or the equivalent of about #25 AWG, but you still have the large number of wraps. A lot of folks started going with smaller wire so they could fit more wraps on the arms. However with the extra current flow, that wire got really hot, kind of almost like a filament in a light bulb!

They were short lived motors, but very, very fast!

Perhaps some day we will have an open class where we can really get fired up about building chassis, painting bodies and winding motors! Ah yes, a return to the days of yesteryear!
Marty Stanley
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#71 mdiv

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 09:48 PM

Great information and stories, all! This young lad is impressed!

- Mike

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#72 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:12 AM

Oman,

I was reading through the post where they have the vintage Model Car Racing News magazines posted, and saw the February 1966 issue there and decided to scan through it. Wow, I saw a Monogram set that I actually had as a kid. It was the Monogram Two Timer kit, with the Tiger inline chassis and the Super X220 motor with the Cobra Daytona Coupe body and the Lola T70 body. As I remember right the Cobra Coupe was a gorgeous blue color and the Lola was kind of a Blue/Green paint job, and my favorite body was the Cobra Daytona coupe. I think I used the Tiger chassis for the Lola Body, and actually migrated the Cobra body over to an extra Cox chassis that I had that had a Mura motor in it in sidewinder fashion. I ran this setup in the super class we ran on Friday nights and that Cobra body was just a dynamite handler. The tiger chassis did very well in the stock class and I trophied a few times on Saturday nights with it also cause that X220 motor was a pretty stout stock motor for its day in the stock class.

Anyone else have one of these old Monogram or Revell kits and love them like I did. They were a real bargain back in the day.

Mike Rigsby
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#73 Marty Stanley

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:25 AM

Mike,

Is this what you be talking about?

Posted Image


Marty Stanley
1/24/48-2/18/16
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#74 TSR

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:33 AM

Nope, that is a Revell Lola T70 RTR. The Monogram model was medium metallic green, not blue. It is still fairly easy to find in mint condition in both the double kit with the Cobra 427 coupe, as well as in RTR form using a different stamped aluminum sidewinder chassis instead of the built-up brass inline of the double kit. :)

#75 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:38 AM

Marty,

Very similar car, but not the same. The Monogram cars at the time were a little more highly detailed and actually came with detailed drivers if I remember correctly which is why their kits and setups were more to my liking at the time. The two body kit was the only one I remember that came with the inline chassis as Philippe said. The sidewinder chassis that the RTR kits came with wasn't my favorite sidewinder chassis as I tended to like the Cox version better at the time.

Mike Rigsby
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