31 replies to this topic

[Rotorranch]

Can anyone explain to me why we use weaker cut down guides on cars, then add .020-.030+  guide spacers, rather than use stronger standard guides?

 

I understand the need for cut down guides on integral tongue chassis, but not for raised tongue, or coined chassis.

 

It just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

 

Rotor

[gotboostedvr6]

Good question.

[MSwiss]

Very simple answer.

When Gugu did a new one, he knew how few of the full height ones he was selling, and couldn't justify the extra tooling cost.

Even if he was selling a lot of the full height, which I doubt he was (I wasn't), if you're only going to do one, you're going to do to cut down one.

[Matt Sheldon]

I run std. guides still on our track that has .025 - .035 braid depth. The characteristics of the track outweigh any performance gain of a latest and greatest guide. Additionally a guide with that many shims is weaker and in some cases, is shimmed so far down the guide rotates past the stops and gets stuck.

[Pablo]

My short answer is, IMO, it doesn't make sense. Use a standard thickness flag when the situation calls for it.

 

I used to use Parma "The Blade" standard thickness flags exclusively on my retro builds. Until the Swiss weighted RF flags appeared. They changed the game. Personally I'm perfectly content to spacer them, it's well worth the performance you gain. Swiss also sells brass spacers that are perfect for this situation, the part # is CR 052.

 

If I was breaking lots of flags in retro, I'd be concerned. But I'm not, and I don't know anybody that is. Unless they legalize built "C" can race motors   

[Pablo]

Ya know you could take a 2 degree CR steel tongue and place it atop a chunk of .032 instead of .063 and not have to add .032 spacing. Or find a coined nosepiece that's only raised .032 instead of .063. Does anybody make one? I haven't seen any.

 

Last chassis I made with a CR nosepiece had .063 of lift to the coining, but the amount of tilt and the quality was so nice and perfect I left it alone instead of slicing it off and installing 2 deg. tongue

 

[gotboostedvr6]

Correct me if I'm wrong but beyond wing racers who needs a cut down flag?

[MSwiss]

Anyone who races at Chicagoland Raceway.

Both tracks have .015"-.020" braid recess.

With your typical Retro car, say a JK based Bartos, one runs .020" total, in guide washers.

Since a regular guide is approx. .030" thicker, you would be compromising performance with a regular thickness guide.

I don't think the people questioning why a regular thickness guide is made in all styles, have any idea how much tooling costs is on an injection mold.

That's the same reason why you don't see Koford 26 or 29T crown gears.

As it was, I had to beg him to do a 28, and he wouldn't do a 27 until he sold XXXX number of 28's.

[gotboostedvr6]

Good info thanks!

[John Streisguth]

Port Jeff is pretty much zero braid recess, or 5 to 10 thou at most.  I actually have had retro cars I couldn't run there because the guide tongue wasn't high enough. On the flip side, I have had stock cars built with coined tongues that I have resorted to standard guides on tracks with deep braid recesses

[Shiggy]

Short answer: I don’t use more than one thin spacer on any of my cars, including retro.

[Half Fast]

Port Jeff is pretty much zero braid recess, or 5 to 10 thou at most.  I actually have had retro cars I couldn't run there because the guide tongue wasn't high enough. On the flip side, I have had stock cars built with coined tongues that I have resorted to standard guides on tracks with deep braid recesses

Since the rebraiding Port Jeff is now more like .015 recess.

 

Cheers

[swodem]

I would still like to know if anyone can tell me how a longer guide flag benefits car handling

I would suggest it actually limits body positioning...

But I’m open to being ‘schooled’


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[John Streisguth]

Since the rebraiding Port Jeff is now more like .015 recess.

 

Cheers

When did that happen?  Admittedly, it's been a while since I've been there...

[Half Fast]

Last year or 2 John.

 

Cheera

[Eddie Fleming]

I would still like to know if anyone can tell me how a longer guide flag benefits car handling

I would suggest it actually limits body positioning...

But I’m open to being ‘schooled’


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I ask that question when the Red Fox guide came out and never got an answer. All i got was the clock said it was 1/10 or so faster. So make up a reason for it being faster. it will be as good as anyone's.

[Alan Dodson]

Wouldn't a longer guide lead give the same results? If your car is faster with a RF guide, maybe it was too short in the first place?

[MSwiss]

I would still like to know if anyone can tell me how a longer guide flag benefits car handling
I would suggest it actually limits body positioning...
But I’m open to being ‘schooled’
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The little bit it limits how far you can mount your body rearward, certainly hasn't prevented anyone from using them.

[swodem]

So no-one knows the theory?

It’s just made longer and works?

Guys I have spoken to did back to back testing but never adjusted for it’s thinner, more ‘cut down’ profile

So maybe it’s faster (if indeed it is) just because the car is now ‘slammed’?

I’m none the more educated after the above responses


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[MSwiss]

Are you saying all the champion slot racers in the world, when testing, couldn't figure out how to match ride height, and got faked into switching to a much more expensive guide?

 

That, of course, is preposterous.

 

The original Red Fox guide was faster.(not as much as newer ones)

 

It's main difference is/was, the blade at the bottom, was a tiny bit longer.

 

I always assumed it was faster because of the material.

 

It certainly was harder to thread (the original dyed ones, NOT the graphite ones).

 

Some racers got away from them, especially in Retro, because they broke in bad crashes.

 

The new Red Fox was way more than a few .01's faster, so it became worth the risk to switch.

 

When I started selling a pinned version, and a few others did their own, it became even more desirable to run.

 

As far as why?

 

The overall length of the blade on the new one isn't any longer.

 

It just doesn't taper up to a shorter length at the base.

 

The main difference is the braid pocket, in relation to the post, is further forward.

 

What that does?

 

I don't know.

 

If it's important for you to know, do some scientific testing.

[Phil Smith]

Reading this thread made me curious of the reason it's called a guide flag. The guide part makes total sense. But flag? What about it resembles or functions as a flag?

[swodem]

Are you saying all the champion slot racers in the world, when testing, couldn't figure out how to match ride height, and got faked into switching to a much more expensive guide?
 
That, of course, is preposterous..

That of course, is what happened when I questioned a few people who said that they had done back-to-back testing. None of them bothered to measure the thickness, and just swapped out and tried.
The Red Fox is one of the thinnest, thinner than both the Cahoza and HP cut down flags

I’m merely repeating what I have been told and questioning whether that have been evaluations done taking this into consideration, and why GuGu for instance decided to make it longer, thinner base and thicker flag, and which of these changes makes it faster

For instance, if I swap it out for a very short flag such as the cut down Slick 7, I cannot tell an appreciable and reliably consistent difference


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[NSwanberg]

In general, haven't we determined that a slightly longer guide lead makes a car more forgiving? It will be more likely to kick out before desloting. Some racers can run a longer guide lead faster because it lets them see the limit. + or - a 1/16 off of five inches from the rear axle seems to make a detectable difference to many racers.

 

The part that extends into the slot looks like a flag extending from a flag pole. (Captain Obvious)

[swodem]

I think you are referring to the length of the chassis

This is measured from the rear axle to the flag pivot point

Length of the flag forward of the pivot point doesn’t change the length of the chassis


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[NSwanberg]

Some of the thinking at Downriver was that the longer length of the flag in the slot made it similar to having a longer guide lead. The leading tip of the flag enters the turn sooner.