72 replies to this topic

[endbelldrive]

Don, your numbers are low. I was at the 2005 USRA Scale Nats in PA and I saw John Martin with 200 motors in his pit space for the C-can classes alone. I am told that he had just as many for the D-can classes.

We have had the handout motor rule in the TSR class and have had good success with it, because not only we hand out the motors but we take them back after the races, clean them up, re-check them and they are raced for 8-12 races, the pool getting closer and closer in performance. I do not believe that too many have complained about their motors so far, if any.

One makes sense...the other does not.

[Cheater]

Bob, I pretty much agree with you, but the real problem in any competitive environment is how to prevent the deep pocket folks from using their monetary advantage to put themselves across the finish line first.

Ever mess with SCCA racing? Their racing programs struggle with very similar issues, even in classes like Formula Vee, where it is not unknown for a racer to purchase and test hundreds of rocker arms (which cannot be modified in any way) to assemble a set with minutely bigger leverage ratios to use in a single engine.

I like hand-out motors, because of the time I save by not having to build and test motors. The cost savings are a plus, as is not having to chase down the latest and greatest trick parts. But it's the savings in time that I really like.

[TSR]

You tell him, Bill! 8)

[Hworth08]

I went to the other site and copied the results of the 2005 4.5 inch race at Keystone.

04-10-2005 12:12 - Expert 4.5" Stockcar - Main - tri-oval

Pl driver h1 h2 h3 h4 h5 h6 h7 h8 laps avg b time lane
1 John Martin 71 71 70 71 71 69 70 69 562 70.2 2.4099 'purple'
2 Paul Ciccarello 70 72 72 70 70 67 68 67 556 69.5 2.4178 'black'
3 Alan Ohren 71 67 69 68 67 68 69 70 549 68.6 2.4104 'black'
4 Duran Trujillo 68 68 70 70 68 68 68 68 548 68.5 2.4226 'purple'
5 Gary Clinton 69 67 67 67 70 68 69 70 547 68.4 2.4693 'orange'
6 Paul Sterrett 66 67 69 69 69 69 69 68 546 68.2 2.5189 'yellow'
7 Itch 69 68 67 65 65 65 68 13 480 60.0 2.5193 'black'
8 Chris Radisich 68 66 68 65 66 10 62 64 469 58.6 2.5188 'red'

Pretty tough field!! Help me out but I believe John, Duran, and Chris drive for Kelly. Paul Ciccarello has the resources of Parma. Alan Ohren has BOW and I imagine when Monty builds a motor that tests very above average it gets placed in his "personal pile" so they have access to a bunch of motors.

This is the Nationals, the Daytona and Indy 500s, LeMans, Baja... for scale slot cars. I would expect it requires the sum of years of experience and preparation plus some money to win that race. It would cheapen all of slot racing if someone like myself could win that race.

As to the 200 motors, I've never asked but most likely most of them are sold a Kelly blueprinted motors, the ones we can buy for 70 to 80 dollars. Shucks, they beat me and then make a profit off it!

[Hworth08]

Perhaps someone should teach Mr. Martin how to build better motors if he needs 200 of them in order to go fast. 8)

The only thing John does to the motors is solder 'em in and drive. Oh, and oil 'em between heats. He won't give you one of the old ones either, I've asked.

[rdmac]

This is the Nationals.....It would cheapen all of slot racing if someone like myself could win that race.

Don, I think the effect of, as you said, "someone like myself" winning a National event would be a plus for the hobby/sport of slot car racing. It would give the "little guy" hope that maybe someday he could win the Big One.
Wouldn't you like to see some unknown 15-year-old kid show up at a national event with decent equipment and awesome driving talent and hand the "old pros" their arses on a platter? :mrgreen:
It's the American Dream.

[TSR]

So why does he need 200 motors, there are only 8 lanes...?

[Tex]

So why does he need 200 motors, there are only 8 lanes...?

Speaking as a noob with no experience at such events, it sounds like a mind game. A display of might. "Look at all my motors! You haven't got a chance! Go home, little ones, and let a REAL man show you how it's done!".

Or not. :roll:

[Cheater]

Guys, at this level, minute differences in motor power are important and even with the best building skills and carefully-selected parts, the only certain way to find a Nats-winning motor is to build a lot of them and to test each one. At this level, racers are always looking for anything that will give them an advantage. That's just the nature of racing and racers.

BTW, I watched that 4-1/2 Stockcar race at Keystone and it was one of the best slot car races I've ever seen. Chickie and John raced neck and neck until the last heat or two, when John slowly began to pull away. Some have suggested that as the track's battery power softened, John's motors got a wee bit faster (or slowed less than Chickie's motors did).

BTW part 2, Radisich is tight with BOW and Itch is a Parma guy. Our talented friend Sterrett is about the only racer in that event who doesn't have overt ties to one of the manufacturers.

Bob, unknown or unheralded racers have done well in the Expert classes at the Nats in the past, but in almost every case they were using cars prepped by experienced and/or sponsored racers.

[TSR]

How naive was I to believe that this was all done in good fun...
This indeed is why we were a wee bit hesitant to even join forces with the USRA for our Division 3. Fortunately, the USRA will not be able to corrupt what we are doing in Division 3 because so far the intentions and the people are pure and other than TSRF (Yours Truly Benevolent Dikktatoor), no manufacturer is involved, period. And the TSRF does not have to compete with any manufacturer as it runs its own little country and it is not part of the United Nations.
So will Division 3 be the only part of the USRA where racers actually joke and laugh while racing?

[Cheater]

Tex, I unintentionally overwrote your post when trying to reply to it. My abject apologies and I will flagellate myself painfully later today.

Can you repost what you said, which wondered how long it took to go through 200 motors?

Damn, that's the first time I've done something that stupid . . . here.

Edit: Aw, heck, I've repeated the gist of your post I deleted and here's my reply:

I believe John had help, with one person soldering/unsoldering motors, and another recording the times John achieved with each one after a few laps on the track. They probably took part of two days or a full day to go through the lot.

P, making certain that the participants are having fun is not really part of the USRA's agenda at the Nats races. It's as simple as that.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Greg, re:flagellate . . . eerrrr, that is more than I wanted to know about your private life!

The thing I dislike about handout motors, besides the crap shoot, is that I ENJOY building the motor, just like the rest of it. I love Ps TSRFs as an idea, but I am not a racer, just a guy who loves tinkering with the machine.

And the price here is pennies versus when I was doing my TR4 in D prod.

But to the point. For me it isn't the cost. I don't have P's money and really don't have Scott's money, but I can build/buy any slot car I am interested in.

I recently rattled the local's cages by building a "stealth" car. Essentially, I did a vintage agnlewinder scale-bodied 1/32 that lapped at the club's Scalex speeds for things like their Ford GTs and such. Equally SLOW. They weren't paying attention until after the race, no tech. The idea that I could build a wire anglewinder with a 16D that lapped like a hot rod Scaley shocked them. Didn't win. Had fun with something I had BUILT.

They freaked out because if I could build THAT just what might I be doing with a Fly car or something!

Fear.

Anyway, the issue isn't cost. I drove 4000 miles to upstate New York for the scale FAC model airplane Nats and KNEW what the rules were. Knew where my planes fit in the 30 some catagories. Knew that If I stopped anywhere along the way for a local FAC contest, I would still be legal.

However, I used to always travel with my slot box. A selection of things knowing that if I stopped somewhere, I could get a room, have dinner, and relax that evening not watching TV but racing a car that would be LEGAL if there was a race. But now, and for the last decade or so, this just isn't true. I don't bother. Not worth the hassle. It isn't the RACING that attracts me, is is MY BUILDING.

So, selfishly, I would like tracks and clubs to reach an agreement!

Fate

[Tex]

I enjoy the building aspect also, both chassis and motor. But I've got to get my racing fix first. Before the end of this year, I expect I will have a "GTP" car (local track rules) to race weekly, a TSRA (Texas Slot Racing Assn.) Wing Flexi car and a TSRA NASCAR car to race at TSRA races. I then may buy a building jig and start in. I'd like to build one of these USRA Div-3 "Nostalgia Can-Am Cars" I've read about. I do like the idea of racing cars that are reasonably close to scale and actually resemble the real race cars; it doesn't hurt that such Can-Am cars fall right into MY classic era of motor racing (mid/late '60s). I'd like to have one to drive at my local track, hopefully get some "oohs" and "aahs" out of some of the regulars and "prime the pump" so to speak, maybe get a series going.

[Slotmanmoss]

I don't post here or on any other board too often. Don't know that I should considering the responses generated by this post, but I will. Our local track here in Charleston, SC, closed down 4-5 years ago so I started heavily into 1/32 slots and built on a Scalectrix track I had bought after X-mas sale. Lost track of all the other racers as I did not want to drive 85+ miles one way to race at a commercial track.

Another track opened in a local local mall about 1-1/2 years ago and closed this past X-mas. It was a figure 8 which I did not parfticularily like. They were running Flexi chassis with 16D variable timing motors with what I called thingie bodies. I bought what was suppose to be the "hot motor" and set up a car to race. In practice, the locals were pulling me down the straight by 4 - 5 feet. One of the local racers, (a friend from the previous track) who was running the shop for the owner let me use one of his cars with my body on it which he mounted. Now, the other racers (3 - 4 of them) were still pulling me down the track by 2 - 3 feet in supposed legal cars; I was 1 to 1-1/2 seconds per lap off their times. I am not sure the car I was using was legal knowing my friend. If a racer was having an off night, he spent the remainder of the night trying to take out other racers, with no response from the owner for this behavior. His actions were quite overt.

Not only do the rules need to be standardized, but they need to be enforced. Not sure what rules were in effect, but think they were USRA rules. Later, found out from another friend and racer at the old track that the core of racers were cheating big time on the motor rules. This time was the only time I raced. I would bring in my old cars from time to time and run during the day after that. Occaisonally I would come in and watch the races. The same core of racers were there and new people did not last long and dropped out. After a year the shop closed. Wonder why?

Not only do the rules need to be standardized, but they need to be enforced. At the previous track I was there for just about every race and raced at least two of the classes. I had my share of wins and top 3 places. Would have liked to become involved again, but my experience was a big turn off.

Just my observations; 2 cents for what it's worth.

[Hworth08]

So why does he need 200 motors, there are only 8 lanes...?

Speaking as a noob with no experience at such events, it sounds like a mind game. A display of might. "Look at all my motors! You haven't got a chance! Go home, little ones, and let a REAL man show you how it's done!".

Or not. :roll:

Richard, you and I have the same level of experence at these events but I don't believe there are any mind games. By whatever methods all the drivers have access to the best equiment. We've only mentioned motors, they go through stacks of frames to find a few special ones and no matter how much blueprinting you do no two frames work the same; they may be equal in speed but feel different on the track.

Here's the results from the last Can-Am race:

Pos, Driver, Body type, Lap time

1 Tore Anderson, MAC Ti22, 3.7467"
2 Mike Steube, MAC Lola T160, 3.7542"
3 Paul Sterrett, MAC Lola T160, 3.8224"
4 Roger Worba, MAC Ti22, 3.8542"
5 Scott Bader, MAC Lola T160, 3.8750"
6 Yoshi Akiyama, MAC Lola T160, 3.8804"
7 Philippe de Lespinay, MAC Lola T160, 3.8855"
8 Mike Boemke, rMAC Lola T160, 3.9705"
9 Bryan Warmack, ToyTech McLaren M8, 3.9795"
10 Keith Tanaka, MAC Lola T160, 4.0486"
11 Allen Low, Lancer McLaren M8, 4.0535"
12 Adam Friedman, MAC Ti22, 4.0679"
13 Jeff Easterly, MAC Ferrari 312P, 4.0801"
14 John Emmons, MAC Ferrari 312P, 4.0850"
15 Dennis Samson, MAC Lola T160, 4.1095"
16 Terry De Los Santos, MAC Lola T160, 4.1889"
17 Roger Uusitalo, MAC Lola T160, 4.2099"
18 Heather, ED McLaren MK6, 4.2642"
19 Mike Brannian, MAC Ti22, 4.2994"

Some pretty impressive names there also! But this was a "fun" race. Race report stated a crasf-fest with most likely a barrel of laughs during the race. It wasn't the Nationals (though perhaps a stepping stone towards one). While scanning for information to build a Can-Am car, I read where Mike Stuebe has already built 30 frames looking for a design that works well. If you're gonna be a winner, it doesn't just happen!

This is a hobby, just enjoy...

[TSR]

Actually Don, the figures you posted are those for qualifying, not the race results that were posted below. YOU CAN FIND THEM HERE by scrolling all the way down.
If you look at the race lap times, you will find that they are even closer between racers...

[Tex]

Richard, You and I have the same level of experence at these events but I don't believe there are any mind games.

From cheater's post above, I understand that now. I couldn't envision how someone could test that many motors in a relatively short time span. It wasn't one person, it was several. It must be nice to be a General commanding troops in the field. HA! Not a problem; I understand they are just doing "business as usual" at that level of the game.

[Big Durl]

The first event every night at the track would be for a class of car you could buy right off the wall and race. A class for newbies and others running some kind of Parma or TSRF thing divided into Novice, Amateur, and Expert running all at the same time. Of course, this assumes that there are people walking into slot car tracks all the time, becoming immediately seduced, and buying cars/controllers to run. These people would ask "So, when can I race this thing?", and the courteous person behind the counter would say "Why, we're having a race tonight!"

Every other race would be left up to the whims of the local racers.

And wherever that person went across this great land of ours, wherever he saw a "Durl's Perfect World" sign in the window, s/he would know that they could race their car there every night of the week.

Here on Earth, however, it seems that to some extent, you can accomplish somewhat similar results by having a Flexi chassis with a balanced 16D motor and two bodies-- one Nascar and one GTP. Maybe.

The sad fact of reality is that when the same six or seven guys show up week after week, they get bored and want to run something different.

The REALLY sad fact of reality is that the more tracks close down (three in NorCal in the past two years with no new ones opening up to replace them), the easier it becomes to envision selling my modest little slot box and setting up a really nice four-lane 1/32 track in my garage and inviting my little pals over to come race.

The only thing really holding me back is that I've made a LOT of good friends playing with these toy cars. And, like Philippe said (sort of): if you can't laugh and joke with your pals in a HOBBY, I'm not interested.

[TSR]

And, like Philippe said (sort of): if you can't laugh and joke with your pals in a HOBBY, I'm not interested.

Hi Darryl,
Not "sort of", this is EXACTLY what I am saying.

[Hworth08]

Darryl, that was a real good post! Maybe the most fun I've had with slots was a 2 lane oval HO track that set on some shelves in the very small shop where we built our 1:1 cars. A little cork around one turn a wall around the other turn that you could lean the car on made pretty even lap times. We used Aurora MagnaTraction cars were fairly fast and pretty easy to drive. No timing systems back then so the winner was the car that could lap the other one. Then switch lanes and when you had been lapped twice that car was out. The second time someone was about to get lapped things would get NASTY, whatever you could think of to keep from being put out!

We used a tourament format. 2,4,8,or 16 cars and when there was an odd number of drivers the slower folks could enter more cars. As the rounds drew down the excitement built, it was about as much fun to watch the others as it was to drive! Many a race had to be delayed to dry our eyes from someone's comments!

Great days with 5 dollars we bought at Western Auto! It don't HAVE to be big time to be big fun!

[Big Durl]

Hey, Dokk, I knew that was exactly what you said, I just couldn't figure out if I was "paraphrasing" you or not. Between the heat and the Voodoo Juice fumes, my brain is kinda fuzzy (even more than usual). :cat:

That one persons dedication to winning races is another persons soul-killing pathology is something we'll never resolve, and I've been a witness to a racers ability to tweak and hone a car kill an entire class of entry-level fun, simply because the track owners vaunted "fewer rules" policy bit everybody in the butt.

I have no illusions that I know what makes a raceway successful, but it appears that the ones that are create, nurture and expand their customer communities. It would seem that if you see your community shrinking, you stop doing whatever it is that is causing it (The ol' "When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing is to stop digging" line).

The surviving tracks here in NorCal all seem to run, at some point in the week, a few common classes featured in the NorCal/SCRA series. That NorCal runs what is arguably the most populous monthly series in the country is not lost on these folks. The classes, all "scale" BTW, are based on the most popular configurations (16d Flexis in 4" and 4.5", Superwasp/Contender Flexis, and Stamped Steel GT12). Attention is paid to concours, and the overwhelming (though not exclusive) concern is that everyone has FUN. As a means of comparison, I was at the USRA race a few months ago, and they are great folks, they had fewer total entries in five classes than NorCal/SCRA had in b-stock alone. Make of that what you will.

So what this means is that no matter where your "home track" is, you can always race SOMEthing in your box at various times during the week. Expanding on this idea, so obvious to me, at least, is to create a national "class" of easy-to-buy slot cars that can be raced at almost any track without the worry of "will I be legal?".

I say this from the standpoint of someone who loves to make cool-looking slot cars, but with little to no building ar maintenance chops (a long story from my childhood exposure to slot cars that only my shrink would be interested in). Easier is more fun for the great masses who weren't around in the (insert your favorite decade), but like cars, racing, and fun with friends.

I've said it quite a few times before, but the TSRF model is the smartest (though certainly not the only) approach to this situation, in my opinion. If somone has a better idea I'd love to hear it before the last track closes.

[Gator Bob]

Wow .. was that an interesting 'Year-One' read.

All of it!

 

Some take aways:

• Greg has been changing peoples posts all along but back then he forgot to remember what he changed.
• Here I thought Pablo was getting worse ... He's the same.
• Rocky made a lot of sense.
• Larry is missed too and I have read he was a great builder.
• Some guys that posted have not been on here in years but are not listed as RIPs
• I consider some if not most of you guys good friends even though I never met you in person. Mike, Bill, Don, Rick, et al...
• The IRRA fracture wasn't even in the Wizard of Oz crystal ball yet
• D3 (?) at BPR is still strong.
• I didn't know Scott Bader raced let alone could out qualify Bryan, P, and some other known great racers. 
• Tex got an asss reaming for having an opinion and I can sure relate to that.

 

That was a true time warp read.