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Real vs. faux Champion chassis


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#26 TSR

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 08:46 AM

They made those for their Econo Kits that were sold until 1973. I did not have a picture.

It uses the same center section but the narrow pans. :)




#27 Gator Bob

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 01:01 PM

Should #4 and #5 be switched.

Didn't the 'Jail Door' drop arm come before the stamped version? 

 

 

No doubt. Some of the posts above were slightly edited to reflect their new place in the sun. I also added to the actual listing of Champion chassis.

Below are some pictures to make it more clear to all:

1) First Champion chassis (US-made, sold from 1965 to 1969):

cp101-chassis.jpg

2) On top: second Champion chassis called "Snuggler Mk1 (US-made, die-cast aluminum).
On bottom: third Champion chassis called "Snuggler Mk2 (US-made, stamped aluminum). Both had many variations and options including an Iso setup or the "L" front axle shown here on both:

snuggler-2.jpg

3) First soldered Champion Japanese-made F1 chassis (nickel or gold cadmium):

f1-chassis.jpg

4) Second soldered Champion inline chassis built in 4" and 4.5" as well as for FT16 and FT26 motor brackets, nickel or gold:

sportscar-chassis.jpg

Also exists as an F1 chassis for the wider 1968 F1 bodies.

5) Third soldered Champion inline chassis built in 4" and 4.5" as well as for FT16 and FT26 motor brackets, nickel or gold:

taperedframe-1.jpg

6) First Champion anglewinder chassis. It exists with narrow or wide pans. The center section will be re-used in three other models that include the Group 20 and the Group 22 models:

chassis-plate-type1-3.jpg

7) Second Champion anglewinder chassis and the ONLY one made with a brass rod center section:

champion-gp12-1.jpg

champion-collection-023.jpg

8) Third Champion anglewinder chassis for the NCC Group 20 formula, derived from the chassis shown in #6:

group20-chassis-1.jpg

9) Fourth and LAST Champion anglewinder chassis made in the 1969 to 1975 period, built for the NCC Group 22 (and the hardest one to find in all of the ones described above):

champion-collection-022.jpg

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Chassis commonly called "Champion" and that are NOT by Champion:

The two chassis below were likely built in Hong Kong by the same company that also built the nickel-plated brass chassis for the Cox Ford Galaxie and Lola T70, that also worked for K&B, Riggen and in the UK, RIKO, and BMW Models:

1) "Five-hinge" chassis still sold today by REH:

84e9522f4b8f6aad4f088e276bc21269.image.2

You can see it here in the Auto World 1970 catalog:

riggen-900-series.jpg

2) "Seven-hinge" Riggen RTR chassis (picture courtesy Jairus):

jv_model_600.jpg

Please note that these chassis were never manufactured or sold by Dynamic either, as I have seen printed elsewhere...

wink.gif


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#28 TSR

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 01:17 PM

Yes, 4 & 5 should be switched.

As you will read in detail in the book, the supplier to all these chassis was a Japanese agent in the United States for a company named  United Commercial, George Shibita. In fact, Bob Rule and Carl Ford never knew the actual names of the companies in Japan making all the parts for them, all was done through United Commercial. 

 

What is not known yet is the origin of the first series of Champion chassis, the sidewinder and the Snuggler and Econo lines. It is likely that they were also produced in Japan, but we cannot verify this at this time despite lots of research.



#29 Gator Bob

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 01:26 PM

Wow,  If the Gen1 SW was made offshore it came out great but I do hope you ultimately find it to be Made in the USA.


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#30 TSR

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 01:48 PM

One thing is absolutely certain, what started this thread is still true: the Mura/Riggen/REH nickel plated angle-winder chassis has NOTHING to do with Champion and never did at any time.The confusion for many comes from the fact that if a chassis is nickel plated (and most believe that it is actually "chrome"), it "MUST be a Champion chassis". It is of course not the case.

One thing that was incorrect in my original statement is that not ALL Champion chassis were marked as such, only the ones produced by AYK for Champion, meaning all of them from the 1967 "jail door", all the way to their last "Desperado" model of the late 1970s before the company was sold to Carl Ford.
The first sidewinder is of course marked on its drop arm, but the Snugglers and Econos were not, as well as the first AYK produced nickel plated twin-rail inline chassis.



#31 Gator Bob

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 02:19 PM

A couple of questions:

 

CP-100 series.

  • Were these the first mass produced cars with independent fronts?
  • Why would later cars all the way up to the Desperado have locked front wheels when it was proven the independent fronts worked?
  • With the choice of (heavy) guide weights was the optional steel drop arm ever used or needed? The only thing I could think of was a lighter flag weight and the steel drop arm would handle better but it was sold as a cure for 'rough' track surfaces.
  • Does anyone have clear pictures of the 600 series motor installed. I would like to build a one off 617 version ... have the mounting bracket but not sure of the correct assembly of that version?

Rail cars.

  • There was one other version of the 4.5" Stock Car chassis for 600 series motors with wide spaced rails. I have never seen one of those in person. Dokk, do you have any pictures to built a re-creation from? 

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#32 TSR

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 02:50 PM

CP-100 series.

  • Were these the first mass produced cars with independent fronts? 

    Not sure, possibly. Seems to me that Dynamic had chassis with independent front wheels well before the CP100 chassis.
     
  • Why would later cars all the way up to the Desperado have locked front wheels when it was proven the independent fronts worked?

     


    Likely cost. Independent setup is more costly to produce.
     
  • With the choice of (heavy) guide weights was the optional steel drop arm ever used or needed? The only thing I could think of was a lighter flag weight and the steel drop arm would handle better but it was sold as a cure for 'rough' track surfaces.

     

    Besides being sold separately, the steel drop arm was only used on the Porsche 906 car with the Champion 601 motor.

  • Does anyone have clear pictures of the 600 series motor installed. I would like to build a one off 617 version ... have the mounting bracket but not sure of the correct assembly of that version?

     


    I do not have a picture handy, but it is simply attached with two screws, there is no back bracket like for the 700-series motors.

 

Rail cars.

  • There was one other version of the 4.5" Stock Car chassis for 600 series motors with wide spaced rails. I have never seen one of those in person. Dokk, do you have any pictures to built a re-creation from?

 

 

What do you mean by 'spaced rails', the chassis with tapered rails or the one with parallel rails? In any case both were designed for the FT16 and the FT26 motors.



#33 don.siegel

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:49 PM

It just came to me: the first RTR slot car, the Unique D-Jag, had independent front wheels! So did the Competition/Pactra cars, but not sure of the date (late 65, early 66 I believe). 

 

And VIP and all the early English cars with steering were necessarily independent... 

 

Don 



#34 TSR

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:58 PM

The Unique Jag indeed has to be the first COMPLETE car, but the Dynamic chassis kit with independent wheels preceded it. 
Competition cars had a Japanese independent front axle soldered within their brass chassis and were issued in 1966, followed by the first of the Pactra cars using the same axle.

So Don is correct, the Unique D-Type, that can be considered as the first 1/24-scale RTR slot car ever produced, was also the first RTR to offer the independent setup if not the first kit of parts!



#35 Gator Bob

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 07:09 PM

Brain fade, the Unique is the one with the upside down motor mount, 2 side and 2 rear body mounts that the pin tube floats in rubber grommets?

 

Dokk, this spaced straight rail 4.5"

IMG_2598.JPG

IMG_2596.JPG


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#36 TSR

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:01 PM

Bob,

the chassis shown for the Champion Ford stocker on the 1967 catalog never existed as such in production. The car shown was likely hand built by one of the team members for the catalog, likely by Ray Gardner who was the PR and adverts director besides being a competent racer. When I asked him years ago he did not remember. The production chassis for the rare kit was the standard parallel brass-rod chassis issued in 1968 just in time for being made obsolete by the angle-winder revolution. The actual car was a Ford Fairlane, stock # 170 in RTR form, # 170K in kit form.
Below are three pictures of an actual Champion Ford, this one looks like a Galaxie, that sat on Jim Williams' desk and obtained from Ray Gardner, that shows what the car truly looked like as far as its chassis:

 

cat-CHA005-170.jpg

 

cat-CHA005-170-2.jpg

 

We believe that it was a prototype and was never issued in that form, but we do have a kit sealed in bag with all these parts and a clear Fairlane body, likely 170K.


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#37 Gator Bob

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:24 PM

That sure clears things up .. have been looking for decades for a chassis that was never produced. :dash2:  :sarcastic_hand:

 

I have all the parts to build the one you show but with a Fairlane body.

The first I've seen with those body mounts that are an easy fix for the 4.5" on hand.

Very Cool car !!!  :good:

Thanks Dokk !


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#38 don.siegel

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 05:54 AM

Bob, 

 

The first Unique car was well before those, and used a Lindberg D Jag with a special chassis carrying a Pittman DC704, then a 706. Don't seem to have a photo of the chassis, but here's the box top!

 

Don 

 

UniqueD-Jagbox.jpg

 

Found it - and you can even see the independent fronts. By the way Philippe, I don't think the Dynamic counts, because that wasn't a "mass produced" slot car - and if talking about just chassis, then the Echo came way before the Dynamic, and already had a version with a piano wire "suspension" front end. 

 

LindbergDJagchassis.jpg


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#39 TSR

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 10:03 AM

The Unique Jag is one of my favorite early slot cars...  of course I am a bit partial to the D-Type...

 

u102.jpg

 

u102_1.jpg

 

u102_2.jpg

 

u116.jpg

 

u116_2.jpg


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#40 SlotStox#53

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 11:18 AM

Oh that Unique D Type is just beautiful ! One of those is on the scratchbuilt list :good:

#41 Gator Bob

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 11:24 AM

Thanks Don and Dokk for the pics.

 

Cool old cars and nice survivor examples.

Yes, they are Unique.

 

I remember the later box art but Don's boxed 704 packaging is just as old school cool. 


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#42 Gator Bob

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:47 PM

You know ... I just remembered I had that Jag body..green in rough shape, no windshield or headlight lenses. ... it came in a 'junkyard lot' and went out the same way.

I had no idea....


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#43 don.siegel

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:19 PM

Bob, 

 

It's a Lindberg body, and there are a lot of them floating around. 

 

Last year at a flea market here in Paris, I even found a D-Type junker in a Lindberg kit box top that I had never seen before..., and I have at least 2 other versions for that kit; I think they reissued it a few times! 

 

Don 



#44 Gator Bob

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:40 PM

Thanks Don,

I think that makes me feel better ....

 

Lindberg ? er .... isn't that a cheese that smells like those old moldy slot car bodies .... LOL


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#45 dc-65x

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:49 AM

Hey guys, here's your chance to get a Unique D-Jag:

 

Selling My D-Jag on eBay

 

UniqueD-Jag007.jpg


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Rick Thigpen
Check out Steve Okeefe's great web site at its new home here at Slotblog:
The Independent Scratchbuilder
There's much more to come...


#46 TSR

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:06 AM

I highly recommend this car, the first true 1/24 scale RTR slot car ever commercialized. And Rick's cars are always of the highest quality.

#47 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:11 AM

Super nice Rick!

 

Could it be headed for the museum?


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#48 dc-65x

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:18 AM

I really like the car too but I'm a scratchbuilder at heart. I'm not really a "collector" of boxed kits and I know I'll never build it.

 

Time to pass it on.....


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#49 SlotStox#53

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

Oh that sure is a beautiful original "the first RTR" kit you got there Rick :good: In mint condition too :heart:



#50 Gator Bob

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 08:50 PM

Oh that sure is a beautiful original "the first RTR" kit you got there Rick :good: In mint condition too :heart:

:excl: "Some Assembly Required" :rolleyes:


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