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FSCS 2023 rules and schedule discussion


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#1 dalek

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 07:20 AM

If there were no rules changes for FSCS 2023, I wouldn't have a problem with that EXCEPT:  I would like the Retro Eagle dropped.  
 
I've used about eight of them so far this season.  The performance has not been all that consistent, and some of them have dropped off in performance well before the brushes were very worn.
 
The only motors that the IRRA® allows are the Hawk Retro and CR102.  I would like the FSCS to try the same for NASCAR and LMP in 2023.
 
I recently did some testing of a CR102 batch #6 motor and two batch #9 motors along with an "average +" Retro Eagle.  With the motors installed in FSCS-legal NASCAR's (including the 13/35 spec gearing), I was getting very good lap times and all four motors were within .03 of each other.
 
I like that the CR102 has ball bearings.  FWIW, the RTR Raptor has ball bearings and, from my experience, they have proven to be very consistent and also have a good life span.
 

 






#2 Hot Slots

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 08:19 AM

I would like the JK Retro Hawk Dropped, JK hands down has the MOST INCONSISTENT motors in the Hobby.
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#3 Hot Slots

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 08:39 AM

I have many wants for the Series, Let's open the Gear Ratio Rule, atleast an open Spur gear. Or if we do keep a spec gear Rule let's have it for Nascar, LMP Spec pinion open spur and GTP LET UMM EAT like we have currently in GTP.

I don't think I'm the only person that's noticed the RTR Bodies have DOMINNATED all series, every winner has used a RTR this year. I'm testing some Bodies to see the times how they stack up against the current RTR Bodies.

In Nascar I'll be testing the Mid America Mustang, the Mustang has a lower roof but less rear spoiler so will see how it works compared to the RTR COT.

In LMP I'm testing the Mid America HD Toyota and OS-501 to see how they work compared to the RTR Orca..

I reached out to Kelly Racing for some bodies to test as well, they have some aggressive LMP and GTP Bodies in there line up as well.

I'm only looking to tighten the competition with different body options if possible, I know there have been many issues this year with the thickness of Bodies and the .07 Rule. Hands down if you pick up a Mid America Body it's. 07 atleast every one I've picked up, that's why I prefer the RTR there thin but they have got a bit toooo thin. Rollin might have something to say about body thickness.
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#4 Danny Zona

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 09:22 AM

I would like the JK Retro Hawk Dropped, JK hands down has the MOST INCONSISTENT motors in the Hobby.


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#5 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 04:16 PM

PLEASE don't change much if anything.  Eddie/Nathan, JT, and I have just laid out a pretty good chunk of money to modernize our racing programs and honestly can't afford to do it again.  Retirement is awesome!!!  But racing on even more limited funds than before ain't easy.  

 

 

 

If there were no rules changes for FSCS 2023, I wouldn't have a problem with that EXCEPT:  I would like the Retro Eagle dropped.  
 
I've used about eight of them so far this season.  The performance has not been all that consistent, and some of them have dropped off in performance well before the brushes were very worn.
 
The only motors that the IRRA® allows are the Hawk Retro and CR102.  I would like the FSCS to try the same for NASCAR and LMP in 2023.
 
I recently did some testing of a CR102 batch #6 motor and two batch #9 motors along with an "average +" Retro Eagle.  With the motors installed in FSCS-legal NASCAR's (including the 13/35 spec gearing), I was getting very good lap times and all four motors were within .03 of each other.
 
I like that the CR102 has ball bearings.  FWIW, the RTR Raptor has ball bearings and, from my experience, they have proven to be very consistent and also have a good life span.
 

 

 

 

 

I would like the JK Retro Hawk Dropped, JK hands down has the MOST INCONSISTENT motors in the Hobby.

 

 

Motors:  The good news is ... the motors are only $13.  The bad news is ... the motors are only $13.

 

We're never going to have cheap consistent motors at this price point.   And going to built motors will KILL participation ... even though they would be cheaper in the long run. 

 

My limited experience - just back since April - is that the Mid America Retro Eagle is more consistent than the JK Hawk Retro motor.  I've only purchased 10 Eagles and most have been far better than the driver.  I've had a couple of motors that were certainly good enough to have been in the A Main if they'd had been in the hands of a better driver.  

 

BTW ... I realize that trying to decide whether to keep the Hawk or the Eagle can be about like deciding whether DZ's or Shrek's farts smell worse.

 

Until recently I had only read/heard good things about the Chicagoland motor other than it would greatly benefit from using a slightly larger pinion compared to the Eagle or Hawk motor.  However, lately, I've read that the CR motors are also seeing inconsistencies batch to batch.  I don't race GRRR so I can't speak to whether there's an issue or not. Can DZ or someone offer first-hand insight?

 

So of these two suggestions ... I'd go with dropping the JK Hawk Retro (do many/any people use it?) and adding a tooth (or two) to the pinion for the CR. (But only to make it competitive ... not better.)

 

But please don't make my existing stock of Retro Eagles instantly obsolete.

 

 

 

 

I have many wants for the Series, Let's open the Gear Ratio Rule, atleast an open Spur gear. Or if we do keep a spec gear Rule let's have it for Nascar, LMP Spec pinion open spur and GTP LET UMM EAT like we have currently in GTP.

I don't think I'm the only person that's noticed the RTR Bodies have DOMINNATED all series, every winner has used a RTR this year. I'm testing some Bodies to see the times how they stack up against the current RTR Bodies.

In Nascar I'll be testing the Mid America Mustang, the Mustang has a lower roof but less rear spoiler so will see how it works compared to the RTR COT.

In LMP I'm testing the Mid America HD Toyota and OS-501 to see how they work compared to the RTR Orca..

I reached out to Kelly Racing for some bodies to test as well, they have some aggressive LMP and GTP Bodies in there line up as well.

I'm only looking to tighten the competition with different body options if possible, I know there have been many issues this year with the thickness of Bodies and the .07 Rule. Hands down if you pick up a Mid America Body it's. 07 atleast every one I've picked up, that's why I prefer the RTR there thin but they have got a bit toooo thin. Rollin might have something to say about body thickness.

 

 

Gear Rule:  I thought I'd hate the spec pinion and spur gear rule ... but I actually like it.  Though ... I could be talked into a spec pinion size and range of spur gear sizes.  Back in the early days of My Series, the Spec NASCAR class ran 48 pitch gears with a 9-tooth pinion and a choice of 27, 28, or 29 tooth spur gears.  We had great participation and it gave the racer options for a motor that liked one spur over another.  

 

I kind of like the idea of keeping the rules the same for NASCAR and LMP just so budget racers can simply add or delete weight and use same car in both classes.  (BTW ... I LOVE the weight rules in NASCAR and LMP.  I didn't know if I would like them or not ... Great idea!!)

 

Bodies:  Now what on God's round Earth would make you think I would have something to say about body thickness?????  :)  :shok:  :dash2:

IF ... I could find an address for RTR, I'd mail him the crappy, super-thin, POS bodies that bit me in LMP and GTP last month.  I was only using them because they were the best of the what was available when I ordered bodies back in May.  I had lots of packing tape and bullet-proofing in both of those bodies in hopes that they would survive long enough for me to get new bodies and paint them.  NOPE!  Didn't make it. 

 

As for future of what we run ... I think the bodies we're running are ridiculous.   But, hey, I understand that I'm in the minority by wanting a decent looking car and not just the fastest thing available.  Let's keep the LMP bodies in the realm of "scale" and not being an extreme or HD body.   Is there a body that does both??  I don't know.

 

OR ... since classes tend to devolve into everybody running the same body anyhow .... Do we take a page out of the ISRA rules and just identify one body for each class?

 

 

Lastly ... It looks like participation is up over the past couple of years.  Let's not screw this up.  Keeping the guidelines consistent from year to year gives guys confidence that what they buy isn't going to be automatically obsolete just because the calendar changes from 2022 to 2023.  And hopefully they'll feel like buying more.  

 

So, let's only change something if it fixes a problem that is effecting everyone.  Close racing is what keeps people interested.


Rollin Isbell
 


#6 MSwiss

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 04:51 PM

Rollin,

Dale addressed the FB batch hooey in his non-biased, "don't have any ax to grind", post.

 

I recently did some testing of a CR102 batch #6 motor and two batch #9 motors along with an "average +" Retro Eagle.  With the motors installed in FSCS-legal NASCAR's (including the 13/35 spec gearing), I was getting very good lap times and all four motors were within .03 of each other.

 

I'll add the #6 is the most coveted one by the guys drag racing their Retro cars on Gerding Kings, geared 12-27, not caring if they run the winds black, to beat the other guy geared 12-27, and the #9 is the least(coveted).

 

I also PM'ed you with a little more insight.


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#7 JHMerriman

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 05:49 PM

 
Bodies:  Now what on God's round Earth would make you think I would have something to say about body thickness?????  :)  :shok:  :dash2:
IF ... I could find an address for RTR, I'd mail him the crappy, super-thin, POS bodies that bit me in LMP and GTP last month.  I was only using them because they were the best of the what was available when I ordered bodies back in May.  I had lots of packing tape and bullet-proofing in both of those bodies in hopes that they would survive long enough for me to get new bodies and paint them.  NOPE!  Didn't make it. 


From my understanding, you were contacted by RTR on June 9th and told you could send all unsatisfactory bodies in for free replacement and you havent returned anything yet. You could ask for an address if you need one, I'm sure Ralph would be happy to help. He also offered to replace any bodies that the local Raceway needed as well. Why not contact the manufacturer who has apologized to you and offered free replacements instead of complain on Slotblog?
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#8 Bucky

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 06:11 PM

Dale is a great guy, and Im glad he did some testing. I do wonder if any differences in 102 batches might be discovered by running them with a more ideal gear ratio than 13/35.
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#9 MSwiss

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 06:24 PM

That's a valid point except he's running lap times identical to that of the existing motor used in that class.

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised he is getting comparable times, but maybe on that particular track, he's been able to take advantage of the massive low end .

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#10 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 08:18 PM

From my understanding, you were contacted by RTR on June 9th and told you could send all unsatisfactory bodies in for free replacement and you havent returned anything yet. You could ask for an address if you need one, I'm sure Ralph would be happy to help. He also offered to replace any bodies that the local Raceway needed as well. Why not contact the manufacturer who has apologized to you and offered free replacements instead of complain on Slotblog?

 

 

Fair points.  

 

And, I'll send Ralph an apology for not sending him a note sooner requesting his address so I can return them since the address has proved to be difficult to find.  

 

Now that I've purchased new bodies at the last race I can send these back.  You see ... I couldn't have sent them right away as I had no other bodies to run.

 

 

EDIT:   I just sent you a message with the apology I sent Ralph via Facebook.


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#11 Hot Slots

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 12:41 PM

I tested 6 Bodies, I ran all 6 bodies on the same chassis same lane, each car got 2 minutes, I cooled the motor down between segments.

I forgot about the HD Orca so I ran a 2nd test I also ran the RTR COT a second time being the track ran in better and it was the first body tested.

This is the first round of testing, I've got a couple more bodies I'd like to try that are on the way.

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#12 Grant G.

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 03:30 PM

I wanna see a full pic of the test track  :)  


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#13 Hot Slots

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 04:43 PM

The Chassis Bender

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#14 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 04:48 PM

The Chassis Bender

 

That looks like a ton of fun.  Though ... I think I got a cramp in my trigger finger just looking at the picture.


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#15 Bill from NH

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 05:56 PM

Is that the Gerding track that was originally built for the Ark in Estes Park, CO? I'm thinking someone recently posted that one was on the move again.


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#16 Hot Slots

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 05:57 PM

Yes
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#17 Hot Slots

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 05:59 PM

It has a distant cousin with a donut, I'd love to have that.
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#18 Hot Slots

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Posted 14 October 2022 - 05:09 PM

With the Return of the Parma 16d and S16D, and the rumor of slowing down the GTP cars next year ,what do yall think about using the Champion Turbo Flex Chassis with front wheels and a Parma S16D running them backwards like the old days. Just an idea
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#19 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 14 October 2022 - 06:48 PM

With the Return of the Parma 16d and S16D, and the rumor of slowing down the GTP cars next year ,what do yall think about using the Champion Turbo Flex Chassis with front wheels and a Parma S16D running them backwards like the old days. Just an idea

 

 

That would definitely be Old School.  Pretty sure the GTP class back then ran C-Can Super Wasp motors also.


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#20 Danny Zona

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Posted 14 October 2022 - 07:26 PM

 
 
That would definitely be Old School.  Pretty sure the GTP class back then ran C-Can Super Wasp motors also.

I remember using American arm S16D motors when we raced in the reverse direction. At least around 1999 FSRA series.
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Test, test, test and go test some more.
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#21 Bucky

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Posted 14 October 2022 - 07:44 PM

I remember running Trinity/Parma fixed-timing Chinese S16D motors when they ran the cars in reverse. This mightve switched to American arms later, but I rarely raced on Sundays back then.
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#22 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 14 October 2022 - 08:43 PM

I remember using American arm S16D motors when we raced in the reverse direction. At least around 1999 FSRA series.

 

 

Yep.  I didn't race on Sunday very often.  Maybe once or twice.  One of those rare occasions was at Holly Hill .... where I learned the hard realities about the optical lap counter.  I had put a Super Wasp motor in an old Parma Flexi-Kar chassis.  Emphasis on OLD.  The dullness of the chassis - with not shiny tape - resulted in me getting ZERO laps on Blue.  :)


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#23 Hot Slots

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Posted 15 October 2022 - 01:31 AM

I remember running Trinity/Parma fixed-timing Chinese S16D motors when they ran the cars in reverse. This mightve switched to American arms later, but I rarely raced on Sundays back then.


As innovation in can designs and arms came along it progressed from the fixed chinese arm to the American arm to the adjustable can etc. There's always the need for speed. It would definitely be a massive step backwards, but I think would be fun.
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#24 Tampabay racer

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Posted 26 October 2022 - 11:56 PM

Open up the gearing, no spec gears. Chicagoland 102 cant compete with the Mid America retro eagle with the same pinion.

Allow the Mid America eagle for both nascar & lmp or at least Lmp.

Open up GTP to a gate motor.

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#25 MJProcko

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Posted 27 October 2022 - 12:13 AM

 

 

That would definitely be Old School.  Pretty sure the GTP class back then ran C-Can Super Wasp motors also.

Super Wasps and Super 16Ds and backwards on Saturdays back then, I always ran the Wasps. Nascar, GTP, Outlaw 12 and Box 15 on Saturdays and then Sunday was glue day with I-15, G27 and G7.


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