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Replacing stock 4002FK arm with X12 arm


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#1 studentdriver

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 05:19 PM

I had some old 4002-fk motors (sealed) that I wanted to move to X-12. For my first one I got the correct end ball that's resized for american arms, also got the x7-euro sized brushes and got the red springs. I assembled everything and the first visit to track it seemed to break the solder put closest to the pinion (to hold the motor to the chassis). It's an older beuf chassis for G12 (used to be used for F wing classes). It also stripped the spur gear. I was using something like 9/38 in 64 pitch. I guess I just assumed my solder job wasn't good. I decided to go with a 8/39 on the next test (make it easier on the motor) and it stripped another spur gear but this time my solder didn't break. I thought the mesh was good and solid but perhaps not. It IS tough to get the motor in the spot AND have the best mesh possible.

 

All that said I finally bough 10/44 in 72P this past weekend... my only concern is it'll still strip the spur gear. I'm going to try my best to get a good mesh on the gears and have solid solder. 

 

Is there anything that could be wrong that I'm not thinking of? Does the X-12 arm in a 4002-FK known to cause this issue (something with the stronger magnets?). I'm just looking to see if anyone else ran into this as I can't be the first to want to put an X-12 in a 4002-fk can. If not I'll just assume it's my poor solder job and some sort of combination with 64P gears. Just getting expensive at this point :)

 

thanks,

Mike

 


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#2 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 06:10 PM

I am no expert at this.

 

Is there any play in the motor can bushing? If the shaft is moving around there is no hope.

 

Same thing with the axle bushings.

 

Are you soldering the can to the chassis on the can end and on the rear side under the axle?

 

The small teeth of 72 pitch may make the mesh even more critical, so the problem could be even worse???

 

Get someone with experience with wing cars at your track to look at it.

 

Good luck.


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Eddie Fleming

#3 CARSHouston

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 06:17 PM

I've used and like this motor combo, used 10/42/43/44, haven't had any problems with pinions. Just be careful with the gearing, because I did burn up an arm in early testing.


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#4 Mr. M

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 07:31 PM

If you are stripping gears, assuming the mesh is right, something is moving. As a mesh check, one method is to take 1 or 2 thicknesses of paper towel and jam the pinion as tight as possible to the spur. This sets the play about right. If this is good, all of the stuff above for how you can strip gears applies. These cars take tremendous loads under cornering and if anything can move it will. Your motor should have 2 solid joints, 1 by the post under the pinion, the other at the back of the can on the cross brace between the axle axle uprights holding the bearings. If you are not getting solid joints, need to address your soldering iron, cleaning, and flux first. Pictures would really help.


Chris McCarty

#5 studentdriver

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 07:36 PM

I am no expert at this.

 

Is there any play in the motor can bushing? If the shaft is moving around there is no hope.

 

Same thing with the axle bushings.

 

Are you soldering the can to the chassis on the can end and on the rear side under the axle?

 

The small teeth of 72 pitch may make the mesh even more critical, so the problem could be even worse???

 

Get someone with experience with wing cars at your track to look at it.

 

Good luck.

 

 

All good things to check, thanks.. I did order a new axle with flats and that's the first thing I'm replacing to start.

 

I do solder on the can end when attaching to chassis.

 

Right now I'm one of the few people who run wing cars at my local track ;)

 

Mike


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#6 Mr. M

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 08:02 PM

Mike, Just the end soldered is insufficient, you need a brace between the uprights soldered to the uprights and can back. This is your problem.


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Chris McCarty

#7 studentdriver

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 08:15 PM

 

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Mike Ciccarelli
 
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#8 studentdriver

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 08:22 PM

Mike, Just the end soldered is insufficient, you need a brace between the uprights soldered to the uprights and can back. This is your problem.

 

I've attached a photo of my soldering of the motor.. I should have said I also solder to the rear.. please check out the attached.

 

that said, how long do bearings typically last? I might need to replace the bearings (I went with bearing in this chassis, not bushings).

 

Mike


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#9 Mr. M

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 08:35 PM

  I picked this up doing a search, not my car. If you do not have a cross brace to solder to the back of the can and a solid joint to the can by the pinion., this needs to be fixed first.

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#10 Mr. M

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 08:56 PM

The joints are not too bad. Assuming the mesh is good, check all the bearings play and that the spur is centered in the pinion.


Chris McCarty

#11 studentdriver

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 09:22 PM

The joints are not too bad. Assuming the mesh is good, check all the bearings play and that the spur is centered in the pinion.

 

Full disclosure, I was running a hollow axle and from what I've been reading this might not be a good "long term" solution even tho it's "cool"...

 

I got a plan of action:

1) run a koford flattened axle (replace hollowed one.. as far as I can tell the hollow one seems straight but yeah, not worth the potential problems)

2) switching to angled pinion AND spur gear

3) will verify mesh with paper towel

4) I had to reglue the magnet into the can.. with the 4002-fk cans (if you are familiar with them) they have metal to hold the magnets in, but it was originally glued but I guess broke lose so I reglued tonight.

5) I will look into replacing the bearings in axle as well, if there were any issues with the axle it could have impacted bearings I guess

 

After all of these if I still strip it again I'll send the motor out.

 

thanks,
Mike


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#12 Wink Hackman

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 05:57 AM

Use a straight pinion with the angled spur. Angled pinion will strip the spur.  Set the backlash to as little as possible - put a single washer behind the spur, mesh gears tight, solder motor then remove washer. Alternatively, fold a cigarette paper once, put between gears & mesh tightly then solder motor. Paper towel will give you too much backlash. Double check that the motor is sitting flat and armature shaft is horizontal - error here will also cause gear stripping. If the bearings spin freely with absolutely no radial play they are fine.  If they are gritty or have any discernible radial play replace them.



#13 aquavelvis

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 10:21 AM

In San Antonio and in the South TX Scale Series, we've been running JK Hawk 6's with the Koford 12 and ProSlot X12 arms for years in Flexis, GT chassis and wing car chassis. We even ran Group 19 arms in them in a wing car class that hasn't yet recovered from the pandemic.

 

As someone noted above, yes, make sure the motor and axle bushings/bearings are not worn out. Excess play can strip gears out easily. I ran 72-pitch gears for a while but found the adjustment too fiddly for my patience and skill level and have gone back to 64-pitch with no more issues. I run a straight spur and angled pinion.

 

I like Wink's suggested motor install methods above...if no cigarette papers handy you can use cash register receipt. But best result is with just-noticeable play between the gears.

 

As to the motors, suggest:

  • glue magnets in if/when the holding tabs on the can break off
  • replace plated endbell hardware with copper
  • shunt the brushes; these tend to run very hot without them

Good luck!


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#14 old & gray

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 10:56 AM

I used to use cigarette / rolling papers to set the gear mesh. I remember when my parents found the pack of rolling papers in my slot car box.

Question “What is our 15-year-old doing with THOSE?”

Answer “Since Dad quit smoking cigarettes, I can't strip the butts for paper to shim the gears.”


Bob Schlain

#15 studentdriver

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 07:42 PM

In San Antonio and in the South TX Scale Series, we've been running JK Hawk 6's with the Koford 12 and ProSlot X12 arms for years in Flexis, GT chassis and wing car chassis. We even ran Group 19 arms in them in a wing car class that hasn't yet recovered from the pandemic.

 

As someone noted above, yes, make sure the motor and axle bushings/bearings are not worn out. Excess play can strip gears out easily. I ran 72-pitch gears for a while but found the adjustment too fiddly for my patience and skill level and have gone back to 64-pitch with no more issues. I run a straight spur and angled pinion.

 

I like Wink's suggested motor install methods above...if no cigarette papers handy you can use cash register receipt. But best result is with just-noticeable play between the gears.

 

As to the motors, suggest:

  • glue magnets in if/when the holding tabs on the can break off
  • replace plated endbell hardware with copper
  • shunt the brushes; these tend to run very hot without them

Good luck!

 

 

Keep in mind these are the mini/euro style cans with the X-12 arm specific to them but I think it's similar in idea.. I think the 1 issue is because the can is slightly smaller I am limited on angle of the can. Is the Hawk can similar in size to the proslot 4002-fk (it might be, I've just never run one myself).

 

I will try the receipt method for mesh.

 

Thanks!


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#16 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 08:30 PM

I've used the strips of cash register receipts successfully in the past too. I like to set gear mesh in the tight area of a spur. With a bit of running, that tight area breaks in & loosens up. You'll find that new plastic spurs are not perfectly round but will have a loose spot & a tight spot from manufacturing.


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#17 Bill Seitz

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Posted 22 March 2023 - 02:06 PM

I've been using the 12 winds in Hawk 6 and FK setups for several years. As with other higher powered motors, the gears need to be set with zero lash (no shims or spacers). The gears shouldn't be binding tight, but setting any lash at all on initial setup will quickly lead to stripped poly gears in 64 or higher pitch. The poly gears have a quick break in and will run smoothly at near-zero lash. If you can detect any free movement between the pinion and spur, the poly gear won't last long. This is very likely the problem Mike is experiencing.

 

Pinions can be difficult soldering to motor shafts, particularly hardened drill blank shafts. I recommend solvent cleaning the shaft followed by light abrasion, then pre-tinning the shaft and the gear bore. I've had a much higher rate of success since I started doing this. I also found it helps to use 96/4 tin/silver solder and the most active flux one can find. My go-to is Superior #78 that I've found only at hnflux.com. As with any highly active flux, it's essential to clean off residues well after soldering. Flux or flux vapors tend to get into ball bearings and will seize them solid very quickly if not thoroughly cleaned after soldering.

 

Hollow axles don't cause gear problems, although they do bend more easily than a solid axle, and when axles bend, they usually wipe out the poly gears. A solid solder fillet on the end of the motor is essential, and again I only use 96/4 solder. Gears usually aren't affected until the solder joint fails.


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#18 Jason Holmes

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Posted 22 March 2023 - 10:05 PM

Mike 

 

It's your choice but I would use and Angle Pinion and a 2deg Cahoza Spur 

 

Jason 



#19 team burrito

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Posted 24 March 2023 - 08:30 PM

try 64p gears instead.


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#20 studentdriver

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Posted 27 March 2023 - 08:13 PM

I did buy 72p gears but am going to try 64p 1 more time. Things I did:

 

1) got a non-hollow koford flattened axle

2) got a cahoza "extra durable" spur gear

3) got a koford bd 9 degree pinion, 9 tooth. Overall I just like this gear...

4) broke the motor in because of new brushes (bought myself a cheap power supply, but man, this was worth it just for testing alone).

5) used the receipt trick for mesh.. this actually seemed to work real well.. and yes.. I did notice the plastic cahoza spur gear wasn't perfectly round for sure.

 

I'm going to go test it later this week when I get time to go to the track.

 

 

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Mike Ciccarelli
 
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#21 studentdriver

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Posted 27 March 2023 - 08:16 PM

Mike 

 

It's your choice but I would use and Angle Pinion and a 2deg Cahoza Spur 

 

Jason 

 

I was looking for 64p spur gears with angle but I wasn't having much luck finding any in stock.. Was easier to find the pinion for sure.

 

Mike


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#22 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 28 March 2023 - 01:15 PM

What kind of solder and flux do you use when installing motors?
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#23 Half Fast

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Posted 28 March 2023 - 01:26 PM

Mike your motor soldering needs work, hotter iron more flux.

 

Cheers


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#24 studentdriver

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Posted 28 March 2023 - 07:31 PM

Hey, give me all the recommendations you can.. I'm all ears and always learning. Right now I'm just using a fairly generic 60/40 solder.. I am using lucky bobs liquid flux.. I don't know if this stuff has a shelf life but I bought it in maybe like 2019? It's actually been pretty good. Before I had lucky bob's flux I wasn't using anything, lol... my frustration levels were pretty high.

 

I'm using an old school ungar solder iron. I'd have to say it's probably from 1990-ish? It seems to get pretty hot still but maybe I'm due for another one, not sure. I don't know off hand what the wattage is. 

 

So recommend me some good solder, flux and an iron if you think I need it..


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#25 team burrito

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Posted 28 March 2023 - 08:15 PM

ungar was a good brand, but i prefer the hakko brand. any 60/40 solder is good along with stay-brite acid flux. i also use rosin paste flux for improved flow.


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