41 replies to this topic

[Alan Draht]

You're right, Dave.

 

I thought NYT's and Crain's websites allowed "new" non-subscribers a certain number of free article reads before raising their paywalls.  Those days are over, I suppose.

 

My bad.  

 

I could cut and paste the NYT and Crain's articles here as you did your's, but I'm too lazy.

 

The point of the articles I posted is that Tesla EV's and charging stations suck in the winter -- a fact that is of no concern to Tesla owners operating in more temperate climate zones than Chicago's.

 

But as a "Chicagoland" resident you knew that already.

[Dave Crevie]

 

I thought NYT's and Crain's websites allowed "new" non-subscribers a certain number of free article reads before raising their paywalls.  Those days are over, I suppose.

 

Damned capitalists. They want to be payed for everything.   Be nice if Greg could charge for subscriptions to this site. Good material here. But he has enough trouble collecting donations from freeloaders like me. 

 

One of the tool and die shops I worked for had an office that was raised above the shop floor. There was a stairway, with a landing at the top where the door to the office was. Once in a while, the shop owner would stand on that landing so he had a bird's eye view of the goings-on. And, as toolmakers have a habit of doing, we quite often were screwing around in some fashion. He would get our attention by bellowing out, "I should sell tickets. People would pay good money to watch you idiots work!"   

[Dave Crevie]

The problem gets close to home. A neighbor bought a Mach E last summer, (this thing looks nothing like a Mustang), and yesterday I noticed it sitting in their driveway with a considerable amount of snow covering it. So this morning, I get an e-mail from them asking if I have some kind of extension cord for the charging cable. (I'm the neighborhood car guy) Obviously it died there, blocking in their Escape Hybrid. I don't have one, and don't even know if such an appliance exists. But I'm interested in seeing how they solve this one. I expect they will push the "Moosestang" (they are Norwegian) out into the street, move the Escape out, and push the Mach E back into the garage. Their charging unit gets power, at least partially, from solar panels on the roof of the garage. I wonder how long it takes to charge the batteries that way. 

 

By the way, these same people borrowed my riding lawnmower this past summer. Their battery electric lawnmower wouldn't take a charge. (they ended up buying a new mower.) 

[Alan Draht]

I don't recall reading much of anything about how freezing and subzero temperatures cripple EV's and charging stations until local and national news stories reported the troubles Tesla owners are having operating and charging their vehicles during this 2023/ 2024 nationwide winter cold snap.

 

Judging from recent media reports, cold weather's crippling of EV's comes as a complete surprise to many current EV owners as well.  Evidently, Tesla and the EV industry in general have effectively managed to suppress this dirty little secret.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens going forwards.  Without a doubt, Tesla's "buyer's remorse" index has risen significantly this winter in cold climate zones.

 

There is no technical solution.  If you don't want to own a non-functioning Tesla or EV, then you have to get rid of it.

[Dave Crevie]

I first saw an article on this in a technical bulletin two years ago. The problem has been known for years, going back to the days of Ni-Cads. Although Ni-Cads charge better when they are kept cool, there is a threashold below which charging becomes less effective. Lithium-Ion batteries are even more sensitive to temps. The proposed solution was to have heating pads under the batteries, thermostatically controlled, to keep the lithium-ion batteries from falling below an effective temp. And some EVs have this feature. There are different opinions about where that temp is, but generally, it looks like anything close to 15⁰C (59⁰F) is where the battery begins to loose it's charging efficiency. And it drops off from there, diminishing to a point where it won't hold a charge. Keeping an EV in a heated garage seems to be the best solution.  

 

 

 

 

 

Chances are, that in the rush to get EVs on the road, a lot of details were overlooked. It may take a while for the public to become versed in the best proceedures with EVs. Kinda like we did with electric R/C cars.

[Phil Hackett]

Only if the owner of these EVs would RTFM they'd find that the EV manufacturer recommends plugging in the car when the outside temps get very cold or very hot. Doesn't matter what the charge of the main battery is, the thermal regulation system will use the AC from the house before using the propulsion battery. I sympathize with the apartment dwellers as few apartments have outlets for such uses.

 

Also, the failure of the public charging system isn't the fault of the EVs themselves. The general lack of system maintenance is another problem.

[Dave Crevie]

Only if the owner of these EVs would RTFM they'd find that the EV manufacturer recommends plugging in the car when the outside temps get very cold or very hot. Doesn't matter what the charge of the main battery is, the thermal regulation system will use the AC from the house before using the propulsion battery. I sympathize with the apartment dwellers as few apartments have outlets for such uses.

 

Also, the failure of the public charging system isn't the fault of the EVs themselves. The general lack of system maintenance is another problem.

 

Agree on both points. But apearently, not everyone with an EV has a home charging station. Last night, a reporter interviewed the people waiting in the fast charging station line, and none of them had home charging ability. What is puzzling, why isn't a charger included with the car? The reporter did not ask if any of the interviewed drivers lived in apartments, which could be the reason they didn't have chargers, and had to wait up to four hours to get on a charger. Keeping the car plugged in when not in use would certainly be an answer. Have we learned nothing from our long history with lead-acid batteries? 

 

From the time I first heard that the gummint was going to push EV use, I knew they were putting the cart before the horse. Our electrical grid is in no way capable of handling the load an EV in every garage will create. That means lots and lots of tax money going to the electric companies to upgrade their systems. 

 

Update on the neighbor's Mach E; It was gone this morning. The Escape hasn't been moved, so I would guess a flatbed came and picked it up. Could be the problem is something other than battery related.

[Samiam]

Present day conditions relegate EVs to commuter / local  use by owners with home chargers. Everyone else should stick to a hybrid. Or a 500 hp Camaro.

 

 

Here on Long Island the grid has been getting massive upgrades. Not because of EVs. But because the houses being built are much larger than back when the power grid was last upgraded. Every house around here that gets renovated is either turned into a huge ''McMansion'' or demolished and replaced with the biggest house zoning will allow. Where there was one house on a large lot, it gets replaced with 2 or more.  Add the massive housing projects with hundreds of units being built on formerly open space and you have the real future demand for electricity.    

[Alan Draht]

"Update on the neighbor's Mach E; It was gone this morning. The Escape hasn't been moved, so I would guess a flatbed came and picked it up. Could be the problem is something other than battery related."  Dave Crevie

 

No, it's all battery-related.

 

I'd bet money that your neighbor's EV worked normally until they left it parked overnight in their driveway, exposing it to temperatures hovering around 0 degrees.  Even if they had managed to manually push the EV into their garage (which I doubt), recharging the EV in their unheated garage would take much longer than usual.

 

Moreover, the EV's battery would never reach its full capacity under in those conditions, diminishing its range.

 

Tesla owners recently reported that their EV's own battery-monitoring systems told them they had a driving range of say 25 miles, for example, but their car would actually die within 5 miles, leaving them stranded.

 

What I'd like to know is where did that dead EV get flat-bedded to?  The dealership?  A used car lot?

 

The other revelation of this year's news stories (for me at least) is that not only do EV batteries fail in these conditions, but so do the charging stations.

 

That's why EV "buyer's remorse" is a bitch in winter.  If you park and charge your EV inside a heated garage, you're good.  If not, you're screwed.

 

EV's are good for some people -- usually rich ones -- in cold climates, and in places like California, Southwestern states and Florida for most others.

[Dave Crevie]

"Update on the neighbor's Mach E; It was gone this morning. The Escape hasn't been moved, so I would guess a flatbed came and picked it up. Could be the problem is something other than battery related."  Dave Crevie

 

No, it's all battery-related.

 

I'd bet money that your neighbor's EV worked normally until they left it parked overnight in their driveway, exposing it to temperatures hovering around 0 degrees.  Even if they had managed to manually push the EV into their garage (which I doubt), recharging the EV in their unheated garage would take much longer than usual.

 

Tesla owners recently reported that their EV's own battery-monitoring systems told them they had a driving range of say 25 miles, for example, but their car would actually die within 5 miles, leaving them stranded.

 

What I'd like to know is where did that dead EV get flat-bedded to?  The dealership?  A used car lot?

 

 

 

 

I e-mailed the Mach-E owners. The car was flatbedded yesterday to Roesch Ford, the local Ford dealer. The owners have been having charging problems since new, and the battery is being replaced under warranty. On Thursday the car wouldn't charge at a fast-charge station. Gary, who normally drives the Mach-E, leaving the Escape for his wife, was able to limp home where the car died in the driveway. So what I take from this, is that the car has never been right. It sometimes wouldn't charge even in warm weather.  

[Alan Draht]

                                                      

 

 

 

                                                     oof!

[Samiam]

My neighbor has a MACH-E. I'm going to try to ''Interview'' him. They rent and I don't see a charger. And I will never call it  a Mustang.  

[Alan Draht]

It's always amusing to see where today's car design teams get their styling cues from...

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[Jay Guard]

That is hilarious!

[Dave Crevie]

Getting back to the Cybertruck, I think the styling cues are obvious. The Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk. 

 

 

(dimensional data removed)

 

Cybertruck;

 

 

Looks to me like Tesla is going for that "stealth" look. The angular panels intended to scatter radar emissions, which give the F-117 the same radar signature as a pigeon. I assure you, it won't work on that truck. Smokey will still be able to get you. Besides the shape, the F-117 relies also on RAM, radar absorbing material, which covers most of the plane. Just the same, the Cybertruck might be going for that military enthusiast, just like the H-1, but that is yet to be seen. The Cybertruck certainly does not have a dashboard like this;

 

[old & gray]

... which give the F-117 the same radar signature as a pigeon....

 

The pigeon would need to be on a diet. They were trying to simulate the radar signature with a ball bearing on a broom stick until they realized the broom stick was masking the ball bearing.   

 

The story about the bats in the hanger with the F-117 was enlightening as well.

 

Skunk Works: A Personal Memoir of My Years at Lockheed by Ben R. Rich

[Dave Crevie]

That quote actually came from a Lockheed/Martin engineer, which is why I usually use it to make the comparison between a typical aircraft and what was visible of the F-117 on the radar screen. In a real combat situation, what can be detected depends a lot on where in the sky the two combatants are.

 

I know an F-117 pilot. Known him for years. He flew during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Now 70-ish and a model railroader. He has a few tales about the Nighthawk, and was the first person I heard call it the "Wobbly Goblin". It can't fly without the computer. 

 

About ten years ago I made a wing car chassis from RAM. Wrote about it somewhere in Slotblog.