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Post-Sano race talk & suggestions


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#26 Pappy

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 01:13 PM

With every dividing up of the racers and races, the complexity of administering it all grows which equates to "more time". The race director and/or organizer should (as I'm sure Mike does) take all this into account to determine what is realistically doable during the time allotted.

You're right, Tex. We tried running a Masters/Rookie division in the JK Spec class in the Ohio Valley series and it was a pain trying to keep up with who podiumed enough to disqualify themselves as a Rookie.

But age limit is pretty easy, just show your drivers license. :)

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#27 Steve Deiters

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 01:26 PM

I understand the difficulty in defining the criteria of "Expert" and "Amatuer" as well as the fact that everyone knows what they are getting into when one of these big races are being run, who is there, and what racers they will be up against. If you want to split the racing up into skill level sets it could be done purely subjectively and relying on people to honest when classifying themsleves if that is the determining factor. That method has pluses and minuses.

I think the question that has to asked-and this should orginate from the track owners putting the race on-is the fact that if we don't have different levels of competiton catagories are we losing potential competitors from coming to the race because that aren't nearly at the level of the top 20%? Why drive a long way with the related expense just to get ground-up on the track? Let's face it if that is indeed the case and people aren't coming for that reason that converts to lost revenue for the track owners. That's a bad thing for all of us. With people like myself who was out of the hobby and hadn't picked up a controller in competition for 35+ years and who are now trickling back to the hobby (I see one or two people at each race checking things out) redeveloping all the skill sets needed in slot racing, guys who are HO or 1/32 racers running in their basements looking to move-up to something bigger and faster, or just people who come in off the street and find it something interesting they would like to do there has to be room for accomodation somewhere.

One suggestion. Perhaps if the size of the fields warrants it you have a cut off point in the qualifying. Ex: The top 12 qualifiers fight it out for the top 8 positions in the "A" group while the bottom twelve battle it out for a winner in the "B" group. If there are 36 or more racers then the bottom 12 battle it out for the "C" group. Maybe set aside a class (JK Spec?) for this type of consideration, or ? These are observations and points of discussion-not necessarily the definitive answers.

I think the one thing we all will probably agree on is that we all want more racers to be active and participate-locally, regionally, and nationally. If we can evolve to a more balanced (not that it will be the most fair as it is viewed now) method of racing that can encompass everyone that in the long run we will have more racers at more races. That will be a good thing for all of us....and the hobby.

#28 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 01:31 PM

Actually we did in a way Ron. There were the Pros, Semi Pros, and Independents.

I really don't want to see this go into splitting into Pros and Ams. Who is a Pro? Someone defined by whom under what criteria? If you ran pro in the '60s does that mean you should be one now? What if a guy was a Pro in another form of racing... does that make him one in Retro?

What I would recommend is to give recognition and the same plaques to those guys making the podium in the B, C, D Mains etc.

Ding! Ding! ... We have a winner.

The pro-am deal was a joke in USRA...

Sub-dividing the field is NOT the answer.

I agree with Cheater... less is more.

The R4 has it right. One class per day... No qualifying/seeding... Random seeding for heats... Best eight lap totals, plus heat winners qualify for the A main... No down time for lunch...

LM

#29 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 01:58 PM

Special GEEZER race? age 63 here - one vote.

How about taking the overall lap totals to score first to last as well (for bragging rights). I never made it past my first semi, but the lap total have not been sorted like the qualifying times. Best of eight lap-heats.

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#30 Rick

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 02:12 PM

How about this idea? We leave the R4 alone, until it breaks. 60 entries in Can-Am must be doing something the racers approve of...
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#31 Ron Hershman

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 04:38 PM

The R4/3 format for move-ups is not changing for 2010 race.

A very fair way to set the races by random draw and everyone has to race into the A Main.

The top eight lap totals make the A" Main and the winners of qualifying mains that did not run enough laps to make the top eight lap totals make the main as well.

At last year's race... Jeff Lauterbach did not run enough laps to make the A Main, but because he won his qualifying main he made the A Main. If we would have went by overall lap totals, he would have been scored 11th overall.

He would up finishing third in the A Main and ran way more laps in the A than he did in his qualifying main. Why? Because the A Main was probably cleaner, had less track calls, and the top drivers raced their way into the main.

Seeding races by qualifying time.

While I personally could care less if we run timed laps to half fill the A Main and the other four spots have to race into the A Main... there are four cars already in there with fresher bodies and no damage as they didn't have to race in a prior race to the A Main.

For the other drivers racing their way into the A Main in this fashion... it costs them more money per move-up to do so.

If the race is using hand-out motors, racers may have to purchase another motor or more per each move-up so they will have a competitive motor for the race they moved up into as the racers that qualified into the higher up main has motors that do not have a whole race on them.

Every time a racer moves up to the next race... most have to purchase and use another pair of tires for each move up. Maybe another pair of braid, another sheet of lane stickers, etc., etc.

The more move-ups a racer makes... the more it costs him.

While it's exciting to move up... it's costly as well.

I believe that races using hand-out motors should be run with random seeding and overall lap totals determine the overall finish... this saves money for all entrants in regards to extra motors and tires.

I also think that when we seed the top four racers directly into the A Main... there are some racers that feel this is unfair to put the four fastest automatically into the A Main because they ran a fast lap. Maybe some will post their thoughts on this.

It may be fine for a local series to do this, but I ain't so sure about "big" races.

#32 Rick

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 04:53 PM

This post was deleted and edited by Herr Swiss. I prefer the washed and edited edition be taken out, ergo I am deleting the post, or what was left of it. :angry:
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#33 redbackspyder

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:05 PM

Rick, don't you think there was more going on here than meets the eye ? Are people really not racing just for the way you guys qualify ? I am just asking, as I see what is going on throughout BPR and all over the country. Your highest total seems to be with the handout motors, am I correct ? I agree with you that you should never see a higher F1 total than your Can Am turnout. Could it be more likely that as someone had earlier mentioned, that the racers vote with their entry fee dollars and feel they get more fair bang for their buck with the HANDOUT motor than with the Pro Slot ? Also, one of the problems seems to be that many racers only race a particular track or race. Howie is a racer, if he is there he will get a car somehow to run, and does not shy away from any track. Other racers will only race tracks they feel they have a chance at winning on. Sound familiar ? Seems like the economy and the fairness are starting to wear in on overall attendance, just my opinion, I was only there on the web
Racers' race, and do not care about how they qualify as long as it is fair for everyone.

Also, if you can not afford the set of tires or braid when you move up, why are you racing in the first place. You know before going to a race what the cost involved is. You know to race within your means. And, if you go from the D Main all the way to the A Main, you certainly are not worried about the cost. You have already beaten the odds and should have a million dollar smile on your face.

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#34 Rick

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:16 PM

Sorry Mill, my post has been deleted, so your post is hanging out there somewhat. I am done commenting on anything but my own threads from now on. The freedom of speech is paramount only applies to some...

(The inadvertently deleted post has been restored)
Excuse me, it was NOT, the post that was restored was washed and edited and amended.
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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:17 PM

I inadvertantly deleted Rick's post in the process about responding to the part about less entries in Can-Am than F1.
I was trying to respond to his inaccuracy/rude assumption about guys deciding not to race in Can-Am because
they warmed up and decided they didn't like the format.
I found it offensive he posted the below (in Red) like the live feed was so good,
he could hear everyone at the panel back in Pittsburgh.

Reasons for less entries in Can-Am:
It was the last event of 6 for the weekend.
One guy had already taken Friday off, ran 5 races that weekend and starts work very early on Monday in
his supervisor position at a tool & die shop.
It also being a school night, Bernie left with his grandson Ezra, who had both raced in F1 earlier in the day.
One guy is on a fixed income and could only afford to run in one race.
I ran F1 but never prepared a Can-Am nor ever intended to run in the race.
The Evansville Ind. guys had to get on the road for the long ride home(6 hrs.?) to still get home that night.
None of the above "warmed up" and decided not to race. They were just done racing after a long weekend that started on Friday.

Anyway, while thinking I was editing Rick's quote down to that one F1/Can-Am reference, as a mod I was
actually editing his original post. Cheater has done the same to me in the past.

FWIW, Rick's quote from the post that remains accessible is :
The perfect example was just shown, 21 entries in F1 but down to 14 for CanAM? When the warm up/practice laps were done, 7 people felt it silly to enter under that system and elected to not particpate. I don't believe I have attended any Retro races where F1 had more entries than CanAM??
The rest is in cyberspace or I would restore it.
It was in relation to some alternative race format idea's he had.

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#36 Ron Hershman

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:34 PM

Rick, don't you think there was more going on here than meets the eye ? Are people really not racing just for the way you guys qualify ? I am just asking, as I see what is going on throughout BPR and all over the country. Your highest total seems to be with the handout motors, am I correct ? I agree with you that you should never see a higher F1 total than your Can Am turnout. Could it be more likely that as someone had earlier mentioned, that the racers vote with their entry fee dollars and feel they get more fair bang for their buck with the HANDOUT motor than with the Pro Slot ? Also, one of the problems seems to be that many racers only race a particular track or race. Howie is a racer, if he is there he will get a car somehow to run, and does not shy away from any track. Other racers will only race tracks they feel they have a chance at winning on. Sound familiar ? Seems like the economy and the fairness are starting to wear in on overall attendance, just my opinion, I was only there on the web
Racers' race, and do not care about how they qualify as long as it is fair for everyone.

Also, if you can not afford the set of tires or braid when you move up, why are you racing in the first place. You know before going to a race what the cost involved is. You know to race within your means. And, if you go from the D Main all the way to the A Main, you certainly are not worried about the cost. You have already beaten the odds and should have a million dollar smile on your face.

We don't know for sure if guys are racing or not because of the qualifying... more need to chime in as if maybe that was a reason or consideration that they may not have attended the Sano.

The highest total for the handout race may have been because that race was on Sat night. Friday and Sat night were long nights/late finishes. Some may have bugged out early on Sunday or not shown up as they were afraid of another late finish and they had to drive home or be to work the next day.

I am pretty sure if Can-Am was on Sat... there would have been more than 14 entries. Can-Am was run last and we finished at about 7 PM or so on Sunday night. We had 21 entries earlier for F1 on the same day... I thought everyone with a F1 would have raced Can-Am as well.

I am pretty sure Ron VW spent more on tires in just the spec race due to move-ups than I spent on tires to race in three classes. Ron did three or four move-ups in the spec race and if he used a set of tires each time that was three or four pairs of tires. Add that to his total of tires used in the Coupe class... maybe he left as he was "tapped out" or didn't want to head home late on Sunday???

I could have raced 5 races at the Sano... that was beyond my limit... it was difficult enough to get dialed in on the King track alone for three classes and then to add in getting more cars ready for the flat track and try and re-learn that.

#37 Mopar Rob

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:41 PM

I agree with you that you should never see a higher F1 total than your Can Am turnout. Could it be more likely that as someone had earlier mentioned, that the racers vote with their entry fee dollars and feel they get more fair bang for their buck with the HANDOUT motor than with the Pro Slot ?


Seems like the economy and the fairness are starting to wear in on overall attendance, just my opinion, I was only there on the web
Racers' race, and do not care about how they qualify as long as it is fair for everyone.

I can't speak for others why people didn't race the Can-Am, but I can speak as why I didn't. I left about the time tech was starting for my 1-1/2 hour drive home.

First I'll partially blame the economy. All management where I work had to take two weeks of temporary lay off during a 6 month period. I took my last the week of the Sano. It gave me time to prepare my equipment and get there on Thursday to do a little testing. But because I was off all week I couldn't take a vacation day on Monday to rest from three days of racing.

Secondly, I don't believe all motors are equal and my Pro Slot motor program or lack there of was at least 2-3 tenths slower than the top qualifiers. Ron Hershman asked me if I was going to race when I was getting ready to leave, I'm sure if I would have asked he or Ken Swanson they would have lent me a better motor.

I was going to race the F1 race on Sunday, but my only F1 was bent like a potato chip in the flat track race.

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#38 MSwiss

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:45 PM

Ron,

Saturday night racing ended at 9:30PM. Go see Matt congratulate Jay HERE. I don't think he was doing it ahead of time.

Cheater had the results up by 9:38. :)

The Sunday Can-Am being the last race, I knew some guys would call it a weekend.

As I'm sure I said earlier in this thread, the pretty good GTC Coupe turnout is partly because of the hand-outs, but more because of a non-school, non-work night for my locals.

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#39 Ron Hershman

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 05:55 PM

Saturday night racing ended at 9:30PM.

NO problem with 9:30... what time did we finish Friday night?

#40 MSwiss

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Posted 21 October 2009 - 06:03 PM

No denying it was late. Results were up at about 1:06.

With guys still coming in for the race on Friday, and later starts, I knew it would be a late night.

FWIW, Can-Am wound up ending at about 7:45 on Sunday.

Mike Swiss
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#41 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:05 AM

Comparison of event formats from a time and efficiency perspective....

2009 SANO

Qualifying ... consi's... semi's... A Main... Lunch break...

Sat. 53 entries (2 classes) ... approximately 11.5 hours

Sun. 35 entries (2 classes) ... approximately 8 hours


2008 R4

Random selection into heats... No qualifying... Top 8, plus heat winners into A main... No lunch break...

Sat. 103 entries (2 classes) ... approximately 12 hours

Sun. 60 entries (1 class) ... approximately 8 hours

Of course every promoter can run his race with any format he chooses... Falls underr freedom of choice

But I think the above numbers clearly indicate the efficiency of the programs.

The USRA-style program used in Chicago might appeal to the 'elite' racers, but I have to wonder how long it would have taken to complete the program if 60 racers had attended?

Someone mentioned that racers 'vote' with their dollars and attendance.

IMHO qualifying and seeding protects the elite, and sends the wrong message to the mid-pack folks. This in resonse to pointing fingers at those who didn't attend.

Perception?

Do the numbers lie?

LM

#42 Noose

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:17 AM

Some time may have been saved if the mains were seeded 6 sit outs to the A, 7 to the B, and 7 to each of the others with 1 move up from each and 2 from the B to the A.

It would have reduced some time the overall amount of races run, cars being re-tech'd etc.

The R4 format of racing then having the A main be the winners of the mains and guys with most laps worked well with one exception which has already been discussed. The F1 A main should have been run immediately after the last F1 main and not after the GTC Main.

I for one was glad for the lunch break which did not take that much time BTW. It gave me time to relax a bit and actually work on my cars.

As for the qualifying, the method of tech and go worked very well.

In any case, attendance was down for a variety of reasons and trust me they weren't all economic or because of the race format.

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#43 Steve Deiters

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:41 AM

I think that the point Ron H. made that racing up through races to get to the main would cause added expense with the consumables of slot racing-tires, braid, limited life motors etc., is quite valid. It's a fact of life. On the other side of the coin the advantage for the bottom 80% racers, of which I'm in the lower extreme of that portion, a format of this type provides valuable track time and most importantly competition track time. Running with racers in a structured format. Honing skills that con only be derived from being in a competitive environment. In my view the benefits achieved would exceed the additional costs incurred.

After I wrote the original blog entry I remembered that the races at Parma in the '70s seemed to follow (as well as my memory serves me) the top four qualifiers sit out format and it worked quite well and was self-regulating to prevent sandbagging during the qualification run. Everyone wanted to qualify fastest to minimize wear and tear on the car if they were in the top four. The same type 20/80 split that you see now existed then. The fast guys will always be fast no matter what the format.

As far as comparing the attendance at the Columbus race and the Sano as referendum on the types of formats to use and people voting with their feet it really doesn't have legs in my view. Different time/different place not to mention different economy. I think Mike S. summed up on one of his blog entries. If they had as many racers as they had with the way things are in the economy they are ahead of the game. Slot racing is a discretionary activity and people will do it or any other hobby for that matter when funds are available. Discretionary spending is reduced for the time being, but it will come around again. It always does.

#44 Ron Hershman

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 09:18 AM

The R4 format of racing then having the A main be the winners of the mains and guys with most laps worked well with one exception which has already been discussed. The F1 A main should have been run immediately after the last F1 main and not after the GTC Main.

That won't happen this year... F1 A Main right after the qualifying mains are over. :)

#45 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 09:29 AM

That won't happen this year... F1 A Main right after the qualifying mains are over. :)

With only one class scheduled per day, isn't that a 'no brainer'... :)

LM

#46 Mr. HP

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 01:24 PM

Overall I liked the format at the Sano, but I would suggest changing a couple things.

1. Top four qualifiers go directly to Semi's (not the A-Main).
2. Run 2-min heats in Consis (and possibly Semis) to help speed up program.

#47 Mopar Rob

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 03:53 PM

I liked the format and would leave it alone.

My suggestion would be having a time limit for those who make the move up to get their car prepared if it didn't pass tech. Say something like ten minutes?

I remember in the F1 C Main yelling at my buddy to true up some tires for me when it looked like I would make the move up. I also remember waiting 30-45 minutes for one racer in the spec race to change his motor and true up a set of tires.

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#48 Terry

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 08:58 PM

I liked the format and would leave it alone.

My suggestion would be having a time limit for those who make the move up to get their car prepared if it didn't pass tech. Say something like ten minutes?

I remember in the F1 C Main yelling at my buddy to true up some tires for me when it looked like I would make the move up. I also remember waiting 30-45 minutes for one racer in the spec race to change his motor and true up a set of tires.

Rob - I don't think it took me 30-45 minutes like you say but if it did... WHATEVER!!! I guess that someone should have said something then if it was such an issue.

All of this constant bitching and moaning on here over the last few months in regards to the paint jobs, qualifying, car counts, motor building, favoritism, spec tires, race rotation, offset chassis, etc., etc., has got me totally fed up with Retro racing. At this point, I have no desire to work on getting my stuff ready for the next race and I could really care less if I do.
Terry Watson

#49 MSwiss

MSwiss

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 09:10 PM

Terry,

I agree. No way it was 45 minutes or even 30.

Don't let the complainers get to you.
Most guys in Retro are positive, "the glass is half full" kind of guys. I wouldn't pay much attention to the "the glass is half empty" crowd, especially the ones who weren't at the race or hardly race at all.

All that matters is that you had a good time. And I would say when you were turning 4.7s in the JK Spec Semi, you were.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#50 Garry

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:23 PM

After reveiwing the posts for the JK spec on the 17th the semi was posted at 12:55 AM and the main was at 1:11 AM. Thats 1 hour and 16 minutes. Terry, if you took 45 minutes to prepare your car for the main event that leaves 31 minutes to run a 38 minute race without any track calls. I want to commend Mike for being able to figure out how to squeeze 38 minutes out of 31 minutes.

I hope this makes you fell better and let you know there are more racers backing you than there are not.
Garry Haworth
Haywire Raceway
Fast Ones
Outisight Designs

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