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Red Flag Rule


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#26 Raymond 'Speedy' Gonzalez

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 04:03 PM

I have raced the last two years at many SERRA races. I travel to all races, as there is no track where I live.

I personally think the Red Flag Rule stinks.




#27 team burrito

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:07 PM

We would like to get everyone's opinion on the Red Flag Rule that is used in some series. The rule allows a competitor to call "red flag" once during a race. This will give them a strict two minute stoppage to repair damage once during a race. During this period no other cars will be allowed to be touched. Also, only the car of the driver that calls for the red flag can be worked on.

I have never heard of such a rule and it's a stupid idea, but that's just my opinion. :blush:
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#28 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 05:41 PM

I think the 'red flag' rule as outlined by SERRA has merit.

For those worried about the 'time' factor involved with such a rule, my solution is to eliminate qualifying... :blink:

Now, there is a REAL waste of time, and a real protector of the 'pros'... ;)

Qualifying six racers to the A Main for cutting one fast lap is BS. Race your way in.

My opinion, and it is never going to change.

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#29 Roho21

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:00 PM

Well, first I never dreamed this topic was so controversial.Posted Image
I have contemplated this for a while, and as I said earlier in this thread, I received many more "no" opinions on this rule than "yeses". I talked to my co-director for a while about this today, and luckily he and I agree on most things related to slotracing. First, to be fair, let me state my personal opinion. I think there are very good and valid points to both sides of this argument. I have raced in SERRA and at Abbeville (that also uses the RFR for their series). I also, am the director of the MSCRA series that adopted this rule. I personally see no problem with this rule provided that it is used properly and with the race directors discretion. That being said, my MSCRA series uses a rules committee. That committee voted in the RFR. I feel that any racing series should value their racers opinion. Afterall, without racers you have no series! Now I have had people tell me both ways. . . "If you let the racers run the series, they will make everything in their favor and ruin it!" and the other side of the coin . . . "If you don't give racers what they want, they will not come!". I feel that both statements are true! In any situation there is two sides of a decision or argument. I personally feel that the director of any series' responsibility is to listen to both sides and make, in this case, the rule that best fits the series or that finds the middle ground to achieve the ultimate goal of getting more racers to the races!
As far as the Smoky Mtn Retro Association is concerned, Rick and I decided from day one to adhere to the national rules set that has been put in place by the IRRA. I feel that as long as we follow this ruleset, we are in that beloved middle ground because we haven't changed anything from what has so far been a successful venture. There will always be a percentage of people that you will not make happy. Anyone that tries to do that will fail! All I can do as the director of SMRA is to give racers a series that they wish to compete in. Now that everyone is clear on my position, let me say this. At his time SMRA is not running a points championship. For 2010, we are running several events in an effort to find the best race format that seems to work with the fewest number of problems and least amount of complaints. To date, I have had virtually no complaints with my efforts for any race or series I have promoted. The reason for that is I am fair to everyone, and try to put forth the best product possible. With the RFR causing so much of a rift amongst racers, I have devised a plan to use for the remainder of 2010 season. I am choosing to utilize this plan since, as mentioned before, this season is for fine tuning our series to the racers that race here and will race in our series on a regular basis.
The plan is as follows:
At every SMRA race that is held this season, there will be a vote by the racers. (Now before you go off the deep end, read all of this!) LOL!
The racers will be asked if they want the RFR to be utilized at that event. For this rule to be passed (for that event only) there must be a 100% yes vote for the rule. If ONE racer votes no, the rule will not be used. The reason for 100% instead of majority is so that any racer that travels to that race thinking there is not a red flag rule, will not have traveled in vain. I will NOT at anytime change a rule at the racetrack when it could an any way effect a racer that when he left home was told something different. However, if I have a 100% vote for it, then it could not possibly effect any racer in a negative way, and they will not be here on Slotblog bashing me or the SMRA. In the future, once we start competing for points, this will not be done. It would not be fair for a racer not in attendance, but in a points battle to not have a vote. So that I will NOT do. So any rules would be in place before the points season starts. I think this is a completely fair way to assess the RFR in a real race situation. My beliefs are that we follow the national rules, but this way I am giving a fair chance and opportunity to racers that would like to try the RFR before forming an opinion. Thanks for reading! Hope to see you at Bristol!

Roger Holtsclaw


#30 Jay Guard

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:24 PM

Roger:

Well stated, sounds like a very fair plan.

Unfortunately I suspect that you may never get to try the RFR since it's pretty hard to get a 100% vote on anything. Even Motherhood and Apple Pie are having a tough go of things these days! :blush:

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#31 Roho21

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:31 PM

LOL! May be, but it's there if they want it. Posted Image
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#32 Jay Guard

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:38 PM

Russ:

I'm not surprised you think it's a stupid idea, I don't recall you EVER driving more than about 30 minutes to a race in NorCal and I can't recall ever seeing you at BPR or Fresno. If you did drive 2 hours to an event (like Fred and I did about every other week) and got taken out in the first heat you might think a little bit differently about the RFR. ;) .

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#33 Cheater

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 07:36 PM

I have raced the last 2 years at many SERRA races. I travel to all races, as there is no track where I live. I personally think the Red Flag rule stinks.

Speedy,

You know Jay and I asked about the RFR on our last SERRA Questionaire and the racers said keep it. And we did.

Please post and tell Jay and I just why you think it stinks. I ask this sincerely. I really want to know why you feel this way.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#34 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:36 PM

Back-In-The-Day a local track had a "30 Seconds" rule. A racer could call 30 Seconds and work on his car. A racer could even use his 30 Seconds for another driver if he needed more time. Nobody liked it... until they needed it.

On the other hand, I'm just competitive enough that I don't like losing just because other people got to fix their car when I built mine to survive.

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#35 Rick

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:54 PM

The RFR is an extended track call, if it is that wrong, then so is every track call. Personally I don't race the series or have any dog in the fight, so doesn't matter to me what you guys do or not. "In the day" three cars off was a track call, then that changed, ten years ago, a rider was NOT a track call, but is accepted today as one. Just as a track call does not penalize the deslotter, but penalizes the ones that stay in the slot.

What is really fair?

Watch some of the races shown on video here and they turn the track off when the guy on orange farts. Its ridiculous! LOL. But it usually evens out for us mid-packers, it's the front runners that get screwed...
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#36 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:04 PM

"... they turn the track off when the guy on orange farts..."

Depends on what the guy on orange had for dinner. :bad: :blink:

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#37 Rick Moore

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:17 PM

A six pack and hard-boiled eggs will clear a drivers stand real quick!

Maybe there should be a BFR (blue flame rule)... Posted Image

Rick Posted Image

#38 team burrito

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:21 PM

I'm not surprised you think it's a stupid idea, I don't recall you EVER driving more than about 30 minutes to a race in NorCal and I can't recall ever seeing you at BPR or Fresno. If you did drive 2 hours to an event (like Fred and I did about every other week) and got taken out in the first heat you might think a little bit differently about the RFR. ;) .

It takes me at least 1-1/4 hours to get to SCR from South San Francisco, does that count for anything? It's a stupid idea because it delays the race for the other racers. If something wrong with your car, you don't stop the race to fix it. That's racing, you don't see NASCAR stopping the race because of one person. I can't tell you how many times I got taken out by a turn marshal or somebody walling me or some other crap. Man up, Jay.
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#39 JimF

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:33 PM

It takes me at least 1-1/4 hours to get to SCR from South San Francisco,

Off topic but...

Wow!! That's about the same time it would take to get to FTH for a monthly Retro race. I guess you must need a carpool whenever you go to SCR as well???

Just askin'... :blink:
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#40 team burrito

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 01:16 AM

Wow!! That's about the same time it would take to get to FTH for a monthly Retro race. I guess you must need a carpool whenever you go to SCR as well??? Just askin'........... :blink:

Smart ***. It takes me at least 1/2 hour just to get to the GG bridge, after that it's pretty smooth driving. No direct freeway to the North Bay, you know. I used to carpool with some of the guys, but they don't go to SCR on a normal basis.

BTW: Isn't Carson City closer to you or are you located on the North Shore?
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#41 Cheater

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:59 AM

It's a stupid idea because it delays the race for the other racers. If something wrong with your car, you don't stop the race to fix it. That's racing, you don't see NASCAR stopping the race because of one person.

Russ,

You must be watching different NASCAR races than I am! Every time someone crashes in the NASCAR races I see, they throw a yellow flag, placing the field behind a pace car (and delaying the race BTW). Sometimes they even throw a red flag and stop the cars entirely (also delaying the race). Yes, even if it is a single car accident.

And let me repeat again for the benefit of those who are filtering the Red Flag Rule through their own biases: the overwhelming percentage of Red Flags are granted to cars damaged by crashes, not because a car simply breaks while lapping the track. We keep saying this but it doesn't seem to be sinking in for some.

Like Rick posted, if slightly delaying a race is such a major crime, why does everyone blithely accept the high level of track calls nowadays? The tremendous number of track calls in most races imposes a far greater delay than a few Red Flags. Why are track call delays acceptable but Red Flag delays aren't?

I'm just competitive enough that I don't like losing just because other people got to fix their car when I built mine to survive.

Rollin, I don't think we've seen anyone yet take advantage of a Red Flag and then continue on to win the race. Maybe once, but it certainly isn't a common occurrence. What the Red Flag does do is give a racer a second chance to keep on racing.

And your "tense" is inappropriate: "I don't like losing" infers that you have actually lost because of a RFR. May I suggest that "I wouldn't like losing..." more accurately reflects your thinking. And as we have stated, this situation almost never occurs in practice.

Such a position can only be based on fear, the fear that another racer will beat you if he gets a second chance to keep racing. From my perspective, that's the underlying reason behind most of the objections people have to the just IDEA of the Red Flag Rule. And I can state from a large body of empirical evidence that such fear is largely misplaced. Seemingly the very IDEA of a RFR is so threatening to many that few are willing even to give it a fair trial.

Still wanting Speedy to explain why he thinks the RFR "stinks"...

Gregory Wells

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#42 JimF

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:51 AM

Smart ***.

BTW: Isn't Carson City closer to you or are you located on the North Shore?

Smart a**??... Hah!!... takes one ta know one... :D

Carson IS about an hour away from North Shore. I was just there yesterday in fact, testing out a herd of new designs. The snow kept me from wanting to go down to Sac. on 80. They invited us to hold a Retro race there but I doubt if anyone would make that trek.
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#43 Ron Hershman

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 10:19 AM

Russ,
You must be watching different NASCAR races than I am! Every time someone crashes in the NASCAR races I see, they throw a yellow flag, placing the field behind a pace car (and delaying the race BTW). Sometimes they even throw a red flag and stop the cars entirely (also delaying the race). Yes, even if it is a single car accident.

In NASCAR... the yellow flag comes out and holds the field in place until cars start pitting. If you're first and come in for repairs, tires, whatever... you lose your position on the track. You may not lose laps, but you lose you position on the track depending on if others pit as well.

Red Flags in NASCAR are used to stop the cars from making laps due to a long caution flag period. In NASCAR there is NO WORK done on any car during a red flag. If you were to work on your car during a Red flag period... you will be penalized laps for doing so.

In slot cars it's not the same as real racing or NASCAR.

#44 Cheater

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 10:33 AM

Ron,

Your comments aren't cogent to the point I was making, which is that NASCAR DOES indeed delay the racing when a car crashes.

Gregory Wells

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#45 Ron Hershman

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 10:54 AM

Your comments aren't cogent to the point I was making, which is that NASCAR DOES indeed delay the racing when a car crashes.

So should EVERY single car or multiple car crash in a slot race become a track call... you know, delaying the race when the crashes and come offs happen????

The same as a "yellow flag" in NASCAR racing.

#46 Cheater

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:01 AM

Isn't that what we see all too often in some races now, track call after track call after track call...? :laugh2:

The RFR gives every racer a single "second chance" to keep racing, just like buying back in at a slot drag race. It doesn't replicate any rule or practice from real racing nor was it intended to.

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#47 Ron Hershman

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:19 AM

Yes, too many track calls are a problem... this is a race director problem. The ones causing excessive tracks calls need to be black flagged and it ends the problems.

Track calls only hurt the racers who can keep their cars on and avoid and stay out of wrecks. Track calls help marshals who can't get to cars and drivers who can not keep their cars on the track in the first place causing the ones who can agony.

I totally disagree with the RFR, but that's me.

Part of racing is building a car that will go the distance and finish without getting the benefit of being able to be worked on by turning off the track for those who can't.

Sure, some guys get put in the wrong lane and a RFR could benefit them, but that another part of racing... LUCK!! Sometimes it's the driver's fault they got put in the wrong lane... either they fell off or got crashed into another slot. Sometimes the marshal makes a mistake.

I raced at a local track that did the RFR... guess what... it didn't keep anyone racing long enough to keep the track open for any period of time... nor did it increase the number or participants. It pissed off more than it helped.

Sorry, I am old school.

If you feel it works...fine. It's your series and if your guys like it fine.

If another series doesn't like it or see it your way... fine.

Time to let it go.
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#48 Cheater

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 11:32 AM

Hey, I didn't bring it up... but I won't sit by and let folks spout erroneous reasons why it won't work or is so inherently bad.

Gregory Wells

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#49 Noose

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:18 PM

You said your guys voted on it so what were the results? Roger's idea of 100% for it or not takes care of it. I just find it funny that no other IRRA region uses it, or seems to want it, or even brought it up until now. I haven't heard of it in D3 either or like I said any other series. Just curious since you want those that haven't run in a race in SERRA to not say it's good or bad.

What's good about it? What was the driving force to implement it? Have you ever had to use it? Jay? Anyone in particular seem to use it more often? What caused the use of it.

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#50 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:35 PM

Rollin, I don't think we've seen anyone yet take advantage of a Red Flag and then continue on to win the race. Maybe once, but it certainly isn't a common occurrence. What the Red Flag does do is give a racer a second chance to keep on racing.

And your "tense" is inappropriate: "I don't like losing" infers that you have actually lost because of a RFR. May I suggest that "I wouldn't like losing..." more accurately reflects your thinking. And as we have stated, this situation almost never occurs in practice.

Such a position can only be based on fear, the fear that another racer will beat you if he gets a second chance to keep racing. From my perspective, that's the underlying reason behind most of the objections people have to the just IDEA of the Red Flag Rule. And I can state from a large body of empirical evidence that such fear is largely misplaced. Seemingly the very IDEA of a RFR is so threatening to many that few are willing even to give it a fair trial.

Greg,

I HAVE lost a race (or two) because of a RFR. When the winner received a time-out to fix his gear mesh because his motor was knocked loose in an accident and the runner-up received a time-out to repair a busted lead wire from an accident ---- and I finished third less than five laps back, then, yeah, in my "what if" mind, I would have won. By the way ... I'll freely admit that I am rarely good enough to beat either of those guys unless they break or I drive an out-of-my-mind race. So don't tell me that my position is "only based on fear." I know he would usually beat me if he gets the second chance. What I don't understand is why some racers believe that "racing luck" should only work in their favor and never against them.

It certainly didn't stop me from racing. I was back the next week to do battle again. We didn't race for money or even ribbons. Just for fun, but it's still nice to steal a win every now and then.

Having said all of that... I have no problem with your group using an RFR. It's what y'all decided to do as a group. No sweat off of me so don't get so defensive. I simply stated that I had raced where a RFR was used and pointed out that people didn't complain except when the other guy used the rule. I didn't say it was "right" or "wrong." That's for your group to decide and it shouldn't matter a gnat's a$$ what anyone else says if y'all truly believe in your set of rules.

"... Red Flags in NASCAR are used to stop the cars from making laps due to a long caution flag period. In NASCAR there is NO WORK done on any car during a red flag. If you were to work on your car during a Red flag period... you will be penalized laps for doing so..."

Just ask Sterling Marlin. And as he accurately pointed out, he'd seen Dale (Earnhardt, Sr.) do it, but then, there was no way Sterling was going to get the same break as Dale, Sr.

Rollin Isbell
 






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