139 replies to this topic

[Bob Crane]

Hey All,

I have been racing Can-Am on BPR King track for three years now.

I question the need for hand-out motors. It is not used nor needed for any other races or classes.

Is it time to remove this rule.

I have not been very lucky with hand-outs.

I have had fast motors in my box, but could not run them.

I would like to try a Falcon 7.

Is it time to move past this unneeded rule??

Please post replies. Lets try and have some faith in our fellow racers.

Thanks,

Bob

[gascarnut]

Bob,

I'm sure there will be lots of people who agree with you on this one. I would if I still ran any retro classes on the King track, but I don't so it doesn't affect me. I do agree about being able to run F7s alongside the TSR D3 the same as we can in F1 or Nascar or Coupe.

But this will drop into the same black hole that the "smaller tires for Retro Pro" discussion dropped into, I'm afraid. We have all been told often "D3 is a dictatorship"..............

[68Caddy]

I hear ya Bob time to get rid of them. Time to move on and I know that there must have been a reason for this rule but its time for
a change I still will buy motors but if you got a hot one why not have a chance to use them?
Bob a great topic BTW.


Nesta

[Grammy Winner]

We've reached the Event Horizon (again).

[Mark Wampler]

Yes, we have been told that D3 is a benevolent Dictatorship. I think overall it has its blessings. SlotBlog for one is great to participate in. It has brought awareness and much commerce to some of its members as well. So , my take is that if selling extra motors every three months is a means to encourage SlotBlog to keep going, I'm all for it. Its only one class at requires TSR D3 and the handout rule on the KIng. Everything else is Falcon and PS legal, ie coupes, F-1, NASCAR, JD, RP and Hardbody.

[Mike Steube]

I agree, the rule is over-kill. Racing on the King track is a crap shoot at best. Hand out motors are all about perception.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Mike, good to see you post....missed you!

Look, the handout thing started because of rumors of "parking lot" motors and such. As I keep telling you, rules are written out of fear and this was the fear.

Remember when we were doing the Falcon 5s and they were blowing up? The fix was a drop of epoxy on the com to keep it from rotating. Some people took it to mean that as Mike and I were doing this that this ment we had other cheating ideas at hand as well. I offered a solution on fixing and marking, but so many were AFRAID.

Ironically, with this fear, I was asked to actually autopsy the motors and figure out why...then got the "but if you can open and fix them, you could cheat". See how irrational this is?

We are friends here. Time to realize it is toy cars being raced with friends.

Fate

[Dave Larsen]

"STORK"

I understand your tought's on this topic! Is there really a need of a hand out motor? Yes there is ..... And no there is not. I've read them all, each side has it's +/-'s ! as with any type of racing....1:1 and so on down the line to H.O. Racers will cheat/bend the rules unless they are monitored. The hand out motor for Can-Am D-3 racing at B.P.is a good thing and should stay just that way. Yes.... I know that a "GOOD MOTOR"can take you from a "C" main to the "A" main with the very same "RIDE" Call it "the luck of the draw"....."It's a crap shot" and so on and so on.... It is what it is and every dog has it's day! People will cheat if left unattended with these motors. PERIOD, it's just the nature of the beast (The Racer)

The Can-Am class at B.P. is the biggest class to race in. Some type of parity is needed, and the hand out motor seems to fill the bill. Yes Bob, it's very frustrating to have a "Hot Rod" in practice and then the "luck of the draw" takes you too the "C" main BUT ..... This can and does happen to everyone! "A" main one week and "C" main the other week with the same ride I enjoy comming down to B.P. and racing in the Can-Am class. I use the very same "WARMACK" chassis kit I built four years ago I enjoy my friends down there (that would be all of you ) It's a "TIRE THING Bob! Although I missed a whole year's of racing at B.P. due to the NORCAL/SCRA schedule.

The Friday night before the first "MEMORIAL" my ride was running 4.27's and 8's! John Sinz was there watching the laps behind the counter...... Sheeeet....I even called Mil, and told him I was in the "2's" with a tired TSR motor that I had from when I use to come down there to race with when I stayed in "BAKE-O-VILLE". Mil told me that I was in the hunt The next morning the track was cleaned and my solid 4.30000 car was now a 4.5600 ride. THIS IS FRUSTRATING TO SAY THE LEAST.... IN ALL OF MY YEARS OF RACING, I HAVE NEVER SEEN A TRACK CLEANED THE MORNING OF THE RACE...... NEVER! What good is it to come down on a Friday night and tune your ride? How can I make a statement like this.... You ask? From the "ZOMBIE RACE" to this day I have used the very same chassis "LET'S BUILD BRYAN'S CHASSIS" the chassis has performed very well , no matter the motor type.Oh well.....It is what it is....Right?.....I still perfer to call it a "SANDBOX THING" Not too worry "STORK" us "Out-of-Towners" are now in the KNOW on what tires to use in the "SANDBOX"

A OUT-OF-TOWNER'S VIEW OF THINGS.....WHEN'S THE NEXT RACE ON THE KING?

[Bob Crane]

Hey Dave, I see your point of view. However, The same lodgic you use can apply to not having a hand out motor. All the other D3 class races, put trust in the hands of all our drivers, friends, pit buddies, imperial burger eating dudes, smack talking racers and any other form of fellow D3 racer there is.

WHY NOT CARRY THIS OVER TO KING TRACK CAN-AM.

I have been in some form of racing since 1964. I have run SoCal USRA at differant times and been involved with a degree of rule, shall we say " How can I get an edge" bending.

In the big picture we all are good at heart, and can race with out fear that some Racer will mess with a motor.

Lets get to a point in which We can set up our cars before race day, show up run a few laps and have a good time racing.

AND TRUST OUR FELLOW RACERS WILL DO THE SAME.

Next King Track race at BPR is in July. Lets get to gether and find some fast motors and blow those SoCAl dudes away!!!

Bob

[Phil Nyland]

I have given up racing on the King track with the D3 motors. For some reason they alway's get very hot, and slow way down, and I don't know why? This hasn't happened on other fast tracks I have run on with these motors. As far as the handout motor I understand the reasoning, but as far as modifying one of these motors, I have a hard time believing it would last eight heats. Showing up at the track with cars ready to run vs ready to install a motor or motors of unknown quantity? I would agree with Bob!

[68Caddy]

I read two good points of views, but the sad thing is that some might get tempted? I think hand outs are a pain in the A** and I fell bad for guys that are setting up the team mates car they have to stress to get their rides all to getter.
Their is some guys that are tweaking on four to six cars at the same time soldering in new pinons for their friends and I would like
to see them having a kick back time instead of doing this because somebody might cheat?
Sorry not cool at all.
How come nobody is cheating in F1,Coupe, Nascar or hardbody classes or JD? It doesn't make any sense to me, they just cheat in CanAm.
cheater this post took 20 minutes to post our time, sweet right?


Nesta

[Keith Tanaka]

The hand out motor rule for the "King" Can Am races occurs once every three months. No other race/track at BPR has this D3 rule.
In the beginning, I believe the intent of this rule was twofold: first to eliminate or reduce the "perception" of cheating (tampering with motors), the second to create a more level playing field (as far as acquiring a faster motor).
The "perception" was a period of time in the past in which some racers were questioning if some racers had an advantage in getting fast motors (I'll leave the reason to your imagination).

As far as a level playing field is concerned, we all know the King track is a "motor" race. No other D3 race has as much visibility, popularity or status (as far as recognition), therefore the importance of winning this race exceeds the other D3 races (for some racers). The performance of the TSR D3 (Falcon or similar motor) motor is quite consistent for a low cost motor. But, as with any motor, the performance curve will roughly equal a "bell curve". In other words, the 80/20 rule can be applied. This means that 80% of the motors will be fairly equal in performance while 10% will be less than the average and 10% will be better than average in performance.

What this means is that in order to get one of the 10% fast motors, you will need to acquire 10 motors in order to get that one fast motor (on average). One of the 10 will be a slow (dog) motor while 8 of the 10 will be average in speed. In simple terms, this means that those racers who choose to spend the money to acquire 10 motors will most likely get that one fast motor. Guess what most of the other racers will get in performance. Yup, an average motor (80% probability) since they will not want to spend more money to get that one fast motor.
I believe the handout motor rule has eliminated anyone from "buying" their way to a fast motor. Yes, it's a crap shoot, but the vast majority of the racers will fare equally in performance without spending a lot of money to keep up with the big spenders. Also, this rule allows out of town, out of state racers to have a more equal chance of motor performance without them buying a lot of motors which they may or may not normally race at their raceway. This seems appropriate in keeping with the "low cost" appeal of D3 racing.

I believe the handout motor rule has served it's purpose well, but as with some rules, you will never satisfy everyone.

Maybe next year we can "consider" eliminating the handout motor rule, but don't hold your breath.

The above is "my personal view" (opinion) on the handout motor rule. Others in D3 probably disagree. That's OK, it's just my opinion.

By the way, the recent Western States Can Am race had almost all of the entrants buying just one motor. The race results are very consistent with past races. The fast racers always seem to do the best, regardless of whether they buy one motor or more.

Keith

[S Forsyth]

Guys this is only my opinon. I'm not a fan of hand out motors, but if that is the rule we deal with it. Since Jonathan, has started to race D-3 with you guys he has has much sucess, and fun. I can say this the only time so far we have only purchased two TSRF motors, and that was at the Check Point Race one was good and the other was slow.

I will also say every race on the King track Can-AM, or F-1, I gear both of these car's 10/29 or 10/30. The motors last all race with no problems also Jonathan, raced the TSRF motor, out of his Can-Am, in his F-1 16 heats on this little motor Dam good I would say this was at the Western States.

Stork, I wish I had the answer for you.

Steve

[idare2bdul]

Both Foamy and I had bad luck with the handout motors. Out of several races between the two of us we only got one decent motor. Most of the motors checked out on the Trinity tester at the low end of average or below. Since the motors are welded shut it seems like overkill.

Both Foamy and I stopped racing most D3 races largely over this issue.

As long as we are on rule changes I think the IRRA 100 gram minimum weight rule also has merit.

[Mark Wampler]

My experience with hand outs has been good and for those who are vocal about cheating, hand out motors put that to rest. In one instance, I bought two very slow TSR motors. They seemed to be good for Jail Door rides. Isolated instances happen, so I decided I wouldn't let that deter my interest in King racing. This time around, Adam just handed me two motors, instead of the usual fishing around the box. Setup and driver skill should be the key issue.

[Rick]

PDL owns all the TSR motors, PDL has a dyno, PLD tests each motor and only the 80% gets into the handout box. The 10% great ones are sent to me. The dogs..............LOL

[Dave Larsen]

Well Rick ....

This is all fine and dandy The 80% goes to the hand out box. Then you get the other 10% BUT..... What happens to the other 10%?... Oh.... I know now Rick.....Thems are known as the "Parking Lot" motors How stupid of me to have forgotten about them. I wounder when they gather in the parking lot to get the missing 10%

[Slotgeezer]

The 'hand-out motor' idea was 1st generated to 'level' the playing field when out-of-towners would come to BP to race D3 CanAm class on the King track...

I've had both good luck & bad luck, when picking motors from the styrafoam tray... Some decent ones, & some 'pooches'...

As a means of generating income for the raceway, it has been a success... As a means of keeping costs down, it's still possible to get 'lucky', & buy only one motor, & get a good one... But, in practical terms, for those of us on a limited racing budget, buying 4-5 motors in order to find that 'good one' can be an expensive proposition...

Many have decided to forego racing CanAm on the BP King, & choose to participate in other classes on other tracks there, simply because they've never gotten a good motor... I'm sympathetic to these feelings, & have found myself not racing much myself, due to financial considerations...

I'm reminded that our initial intent in creating D3 was ( is ) to provide a fun, low-cost racing environment... If removing the hand-out motor rule will stimulate participation, then it should be considered... Otherwise, there wouldn't seem to be much reason to change or 'fix' something that certainly isn't broken...

Just my opinion, guys... That two cents won't buy much, but getting everyone to consider the situation, & remember WHY we race slot cars, is truly priceless!

Take care, everyone... & of course, good racing!


Jeff Easterly

[Rick]

I am curious about something and honestly not trying to stir any post. What is the general consensus of having the 100 gram minimum weight like IRRA and your D3 way of no minimum weight. You have raced now for 3 plus year with no minimum weight. Do the racers like it better that way or would they prefer a minimum weight rule? I did see someone had brought it up earlier and there was zero response? So what's the thoughts on this.......

[TSR]

We are building lighter cars for use on the King, much heavier cars to use on the other tracks. I see nothing wrong with no weight limit at this time, it has not been an issue. You want a car "nailed" to the King track, build heavier. You want to go faster, build lighter and hope that you can drive the thing.
I won a Retro Pro race on the King not too long ago with a 68-gram car. it was a handful and tough to keep from getting ahead of me, but it worked. That day.
At the same time, my Kingleman record-holder is 134 grams. One has to adapt...

[68Caddy]

May I say some thing, I never heard anyone complains about the weigh issues, because you give up on some handling issues in traffic when its to light but you gain a lot if you got a heavy car when you are in the middle of things. The motors is a another issue in it self.
I go with the general crowed, but sure it sucks when you got to buy more the two to get a dissent one, or should I say a competitive one.
I roll either way because it is what it is, and life is good.
I have to say that the cleaning of the tracks is a bigger issue then motors because you dial your ride in for the track and then Whoops its gone? Magic I guess?
The good thing is every on has to deal with it so it makes it fair.

Nesta

[TSR]

OK. I am not sure what Nesta meant there, but I am sure that someone will get it.

[Mopar Rob]

It's cryptic, but sadly I understood what he was trying to say.



Why don't you guys just limit the number of hand out motors one can purchase? If only allowed to buy two on race day, the best of the two would be run. Would also keep costs down

[Keith Tanaka]

Why don't you guys just limit the number of hand out motors one can purchase? If only allowed to buy two on race day, the best of the two would be run. Would also keep costs down

Rob, at our last Can Am race this past Saturday, I think there was only a few racers who bought more than one motor. Typically, only the fast racers buy more than one motor (if needed). The majority of racers will race with one motor since they realize they won't be on the "A" main podium regardless of how fast a motor they get.


Keith

[68Caddy]

Myself I want a rocket of motor specially on the King because look at the straight away and the bank lots of feet to cover?
But that's me.


Nesta