139 replies to this topic

[TSR]

All mass produced motors vary about 10% around the specification.

Rocky,
According to whom exactly? Our factory random and quite sophisticated tests show a variation of less than 3% on dozens of samples.

EVERY TYPE of motor, in EVERY factory, in EVERY batch can be different. The final test is the actual quality of the factory, the machinery to produce the motors, the variations in assembly... when one considers that the motors in question are produced and assembled almost exclusively by mindless automatic machines, what do you think is going to happen?

Tony P tested the motors in question and published his results about 2 years ago in these pages, and found a variation below 3%.
Let's not pull numbers out of a hat to justify one stand or another please.

[Ron Hershman]

EVERY TYPE of motor, in EVERY factory, in EVERY batch can be different. The final test is the actual quality of the factory, the machinery to produce the motors, the variations in assembly... when one considers that the motors in question are produced and assembled almost exclusively by mindless automatic machines, what do you think is going to happen?

Hard at work in the factory where your motors are produced.

[Zippity]

Ron,

Are you comparing apples with apples?

Are those slot car armatures?

[MrWeiler]

I know almost all of the processes but what is "rotor trickling"? Testing for shorts & opens?

[Ron Hershman]

Ron,

Are you comparing apples with apples?

Are those slot car armatures?

Rotor winding would be three pole winding.

I know almost all of the processes but what is "rotor trickling"? Testing for shorts & opens?

Trickling is epoxying...... epoxying is a added service and charge and the FK motors we use do not have this process.

There really isn't much difference between trickling and no epoxy when it comes to Chinese quality of epoxying.

[MrWeiler]

Again, I remember a long afternoon for Brannian and me, where I was going by him like he was tied to a post. "hi rocky, bye rocky"...not a lot of fun for either of us.

The motors we had were from the far end of the bell curve...

[Ron Hershman]

The motors we had were from the far end of the bell curve...

But within the 3% range right?

[Keith Tanaka]

BP is opening an hour earlier, which means leaving home an hour earlier. That makes it worth the trip IF I can run two classes on Saturday. I think visitors from out of the area will agree. Attendance isn't what it used to be and it seems 5 or 6 mains total can fill up a day. 3 for CanAm and 2 or 3 for F-1. Western States worked out perf. Coupes and Can Am ran the same day.

Mark, you're correct.

Our F1/Can Am races on the King for the last 3 or 4 times has been 3 Can Am mains and 2 or 3 F1 mains.

It takes about 1 hour to run each main (this is the total time from the end of one main to the end of the next main). Tech inspection and qualifying adds another hour to the total time for each race (that's a total of 2 hours for both F1 and Can Am). Past race results shows that the time from the end of tech to the end of the last main in each event is fairly consistent. There is not a lot of wasted time here. The area in which we do waste time is usually the start of and end of tech inspection. Late start/end of F1 tech is usually due to late arriving racers. Also, a lunch break between the F1 and Can Am races adds additional time to the race day.
Based on the estimates (actual times recorded) above, a typical F1/Can Am race day (5 or 6 mains total) will take 7 or 8 hours not including "wasted" or extra time between events.
A strict racing time schedule (very similar to what John Sinz proposed) would yield the following: track opens at 8 am, F1 tech opens at 9:30, ends at 10:00am. F1 qualifying ends at 10:30 am.
First F1 race starts at 10:40 am and last F1 Main ends at 1:40 pm (3 mains) or 12:40 (2 mains). Can Am tech starts at 3 pm (or sooner if only 2 F1 mains) and ends at 3:30 pm. Can Am qualifying ends at 4 pm. 3rd Can Am Main ends at 7 pm. If there are only 5 mains, the finish time would be 6 pm.

You cannot finish F1 and Can Am racing by 3 to 4 pm. Perhaps having F1 on another race day would be better. Also, it saves time if the first race of each event (F1 or Can Am) is a round robin with up to 3 sitouts. This reduces the number of mains which reduces the total racing time. If we decide to no longer use the handout motor rule for the Can Am race, it would require less time for the racers to prepare their cars and thus reduce time. Our racing schedule could be revised to provide a reasonable finish time for each racing day, but F1 and Can Am together will always end up with a 6 to 7 pm finish time.

Keith

[68Caddy]

Keith very good points on this comments, and I think it would be great to get the racers including me to get on time for tech inspection and other duties.
Its funny I suck as a racer but I get luck with hand out motors?


Nesta

[Jonathan Forsyth]

Seperating Can-Am and F-1 would be a bad idea in my opinion. I would think most people like to get 2 races in during th day, and that would definately cancel out most traveling racers. I am still planning on coming back for the occasional race, but would no longer come if Can-Am and F-1 were not raced on the same day.

Handout Motors make no differance to me, keep them or don't doesn't really matter. However I don't think separating the 2 biggest D3 classes would be a wise decision.

Jonathan

[68Caddy]

I'm with ya on that one, it comes down to driving skills and you sure got it.
Welcome to the commute and its Su**s as you will find out.


Nesta

[Gary Donahoe]

Keith, I did the math on the race schedule as well. My numbers are just about identical to yours. I came up with 5.25 hours for a C/B/A event from start of practice until the end of the A. If you run two C/B/A events on the same day with a short lunch break you have 11 hours, best case.

After giving it some thought I agree with Jonathan that splitting F1 and CanAm would be a mistake.

If we stay on a schedule like John's as soon as the number of entries for first race is determined the practice start time for the second race can be predicted. Someone not wanting to spend all day at the track can run the first race only or call in after the posted tech close time for the first race and be told what time to show up for practice for the second race.

I understand the advantages and disadvantages to handout motors. Perhaps it would be a good idea to try it without handouts for the next few races and see how it goes. Either way Paul decides is good with me.

All in all everything works pretty good. No need for major changes.

[Tim Neja]

I think he's thinking of F-1 too---or any other class. Bottom line--no matter WHAT you decide---it won't please everyone!! Why not LEAVE IT ALONE --- the King race is STILL the best attended race of the races---so even though there's plenty of discussion--the majority seem to accept it and race it!! While I never won a hand-out race--I still believe it to be fair--I won lot's of flat track races-- and Kingleman races-- and that's where I used my handout motors most!!!!
FWIW
T

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

P, comon, you know me better than that, I didn't pull the number out of my A$$. Remember, the story for me is a lot larger than just D3 but people asking me to review various motors from various cars...or a lot more than a dozen. That YOUR sample was within 3% is fine, but doesn't change the point being made.

When Mike was being passed while driving flat out every couple laps, that motor was down a lot more than 10%!

Remember, I am not the guy insisting on "fair and equal" or operating out of "suspicion".

Lets reverse the discussion: No money on the line, and bragging rights that don't last past going next door for a burger, just why is everyone so uptight on this subject?

When all that is on the line is, at best pride (and I know Steube and you and Cukrus are better than I), blaming the motor gets even sillier to my mind, and handouts ain't gonna make me a better driver than Steube!

Fate

[Jacob Shiplet]

Hi

P, comon, you know me better than that, I didn't pull the number out of my A$$. Remember, the story for me is a lot larger than just D3 but people asking me to review various motors from various cars...or a lot more than a dozen. That YOUR sample was within 3% is fine, but doesn't change the point being made.

When Mike was being passed while driving flat out every couple laps, that motor was down a lot more than 10%!

Remember, I am not the guy insisting on "fair and equal" or operating out of "suspicion".

Lets reverse the discussion: No money on the line, and bragging rights that don't last past going next door for a burger, just why is everyone so uptight on this subject?

When all that is on the line is, at best pride (and I know Steube and you and Cukrus are better than I), blaming the motor gets even sillier to my mind, and handouts ain't gonna make me a better driver than Steube!

Fate

While we had handouts at the R4(Ron toasted a few) it didnt help or hurt me any. Actually the only person who it should have hurt the most was Ron. He smoked a few motors in practice, pretty much everyone else was ok. I was able to blow by Ron on the straights, but again he would laugh at me in the infield as he would just pull away 20ft from me. Handouts arent going to really help or hurt anyone in my opinion. I am definitely not the fastest guy to put a pinion on or a motor in, but 1.25 hours was plenty of time for me. The thing that took me the longest was cutting the body for my car.