79 replies to this topic

[JeremyM]

Do you guys zap your Falcon 7 neo magnets with a ceramic magnet zapper? I have been doing it but I have no clue if it makes a difference. I am curious to what the slot car community has to say...

[JohnnySlotcar]

No, do not do it. Only reduces the magnet strength.

[Champion 507]

Not only no but HECK NO.

Steve Okeefe, a very highly respected gentleman in the slot car community, has told me on a couple of occasions that it takes an extremely large, mega$$$$ machine to zap neos. The machine could even be as large as a small house trailer. A cobalt zapper won't even touch it and they're a lot more powerful than a ceramic zapper.

Remember 2 things in life...never eat yellow snow and never re-zap neos!

That's a good question though. If neos get much over 200 degrees F., they lose their magnetism quickly. I've heard some will go to 250 degrees but I don't have any experience with those. If neos lose their strength, throw them away.

[havlicek]

What Doug and John said! Except:

I've heard some will go to 250 degrees but I don't have any experience with those.

There are grades of neodymium magnet material that have an operating temperature of up to almost 400 degrees F and the various strengths of different grades of neos go all the way to the ridiculous... maybe "too strong". 200-250degrees F is the usual though.

-john

[Victor Poulin]

I've heard the BOW zapper will do neo mags, but I'm not sure if that's just a rumor. Maybe someone who has one will chime in on this?

Vic

[TSR]

Do it if you like to go slower.

Or even better: buy one of those "rezapped' F7s at twice the price from one of those crooks on ePay.

[Neuspeed]

Well, for me I have zap every F7 that I've owned, and turn the fastest times with the motors, true fact. Now if it hurts them? I would say no. I have run against those that do not zap, and my motors are more consistent. even in my Retro I was turning very fast lap times.

I will continue to zap. Does not hurt them at all. The heat is what kills them. These are my findings. I would say get two motors, zap one and run the other as it comes. Look for better lap times and brakes and see for yourself.

[Neuspeed]

Yes, you can!

The latest version of the Falcon motor, the VII (also sold with different timing as TSRF motors) CAN BE ZAPPED!!

But, like anything else, you need to do it properly.

With typical ceramic motors, both D and C size cans, the magnets are readily overpowered by the zapper, so that you can either restore original strength or reverse the field entirely. If you reverse the field, you will need to hook up your lead wires the opposite of how they were.

The magnets in the latest Falcon or TSRF motors are a matrix of metallic magnet dust and polymer heat molded into the arc segment shape. This stuff requires more energy than ceramic magnets to zap, but not as much as a true sintered Neo or SMCo magnet. Typical ceramic zappers will restore original strength, but NOT reverse these magnets. If you try to reverse them with a ceramic zapper, you end up with an almost discharged magnet.

So, the trick is to accurately determine the magnet polarity, and zap to reinforce that charge rather than to reverse it. Now here is where a lot of people have messed up, leading to the incorrect notion that these motors cannot or should not be zapped.

In most D or C motors the positive lead wire hooks up to the same side of the motor that contains the positive magnet. The exception is when the armature is "hemi wound", which refers to the order in which comm segments are hooked to the armature coils. RJR and Viper armatures were routinely hemi wound, but all others are conventional. Pro Slot will make hemi arms to order, however. But, I digress...

In the Falcon VII, the red dot on the endbell is where you hook up the positive wire, but that side contains the NEGATIVE magnet. If you ever pry a Falcon open, you will find the brushes do not come in from the same direction as they do in a C or D motor, but rather about 60* off of that alignment. A close look at the comm will reveal some funny timing, too, as a compensation for the brush geometry. The net effect is a mildly timed "hemi" hook up motor.

So, if you zap one, use a compass to identify the magnet polarity, and zap it the same as it already is. The good news is that if you get it wrong and kill the magnets, the same zapper will restore the performance when you turn the motor around and zap it right.

By the way, verify proper motor performance on a power supply or on the track. YOU CAN TELL NOTHING BY FEELING THE 'COG' OF THE MOTOR!! In fact, too much cog is often a sign of a motor that NEEDS zapping, rather than a sign of a motor with strong magnets.

It seems this question comes up every few months... makes me wonder if anyone actually reads the answer.

[TSR]

Baxter, everyone is free to do whatever they want... good luck to you.

[Victor Poulin]

I don't think it's a matter of people reading the info, as much as it is, the conflicting reports from the readers.

I seem to recall a conversation I had with Monty a while back about this, and he pretty much told me what you just did word for word.

It would seem the easy answer to this would be to just take gauss readings before and after zapping. Wouldn't that tell the tale? That's what I plan to do, but I don't have an F7 at the moment to experiment with.

Vic

[Neuspeed]

Baxter, everyone is free to do whatever they want... good luck to you.

I just gave him not only the info that I received when I asked the same exact question, but also the physics behind it. This is from a person who has a great deal of knowledge in this area. So I don't understand what you mean by your comment? I did not say don't listen to those guys, I just shared with him my findings on the matter, I did not know that you can only comment one sided.

[Neuspeed]

I don't think it's a matter of people reading the info, as much as it is, the conflicting reports from the readers.

I seem to recall a conversation I had with Monty a while back about this, and he pretty much told me what you just did word for word.

It would seem the easy answer to this would be to just take gauss readings before and after zapping. Wouldn't that tell the tale? That's what I plan to do, but I don't have an F7 at the moment to experiment with.

Well, I did the testing with zapped and unzapped on the track. It did not say that it would give them more power but rather ensure that they are at the full potential and it's just a safeguard for me which makes my cars run more consistent. Maybe that could be the difference between a BAD Falcon and a good Falcon motor. Some may not be at full power at the time of purchase.

Just my thoughts...

[Rick]

I think the reason this keeps coming up is because of conflicting responses and also information that is contradictory to itself. Everyone is always searching for that lightning in a bottle, guess what? It ain't there!

Being as I was the first on the block to offer personal zappers, I have a stake in this topic and still sell zappers. I do not have real experience with the other makers and do not know their strengths of charge, etc.

Normally the FK neos will read about 1300-1400 gauss on the meter I use. But you guys want to charge up magnets in assembled motors so all you have is the outside of the can to take readings from. I have done zapping and reading internally trying to figure out all the claims. I have also zapped set-ups with arms installed and did not see more than a minute change in numbers. You have to realize that a count change of 14 would be 1%. So a change of less than 14 would be less than 1%. If you feel this 1% is good, go for it.

I have also found on occasion with ceramic motors, such as a 501, if you zap it assembled and do not use a slug in between the magnets the guass readings actually DROP!

All the ceramic zappers available will do what they are intended to do. That function is they can reverse and saturate a magnet up to and beyond its full strength. If a zapper can reverse and saturate in one hit, it's doing it's job. Now here is the fly in the oinment.

"Typical ceramic zappers will restore original strength, but NOT reverse these magnets. If you try to reverse them with a ceramic zapper, you end up with an almost discharged magnet."

This has been my experience using MY zapper. If you zap it backwards, it will pull the magnets down. BUT, when I tried to bring it back up to original readings, it would not do that. If a zapper cannot reverse a magnet, it cannot saturate the magnet up to original strength either. In order to restore original readings a zapper must be capable of going beyond that strength; that is how you saturate a magnet. Hitting it with more magnetic strength than it requires. Therein lies the conflicting statement. Cannot reverse but can re-saturate the correct way? My zapper may not be as powerful as others out there, I don't know for certain, but I know it works beautifully for its intended purpose.

When zapping for ceramic magnets a steel or iron slug MUST be used to saturate the magnets. Do it without the slug, and you will do nothing but pull them down. Neos and cobalts do not require this slug because those zappers are very, very higher power, much more than a ceramic unit. The slug has to be made from a magnetic material also; you can't use aluminum or 300 series stainless steel as these materials are non-magnetic. Also, armature lams are made from silicon steel and do not hold a magnetic charge like carbon steel does; that's why it is used for armatures and transformers. So the armature is not a good conductor of magnetism in the first place.

I have asked several times in other threads for someone, anyone to use their magnetizer and show before and after readings on the outside of the FK can. Thus far no one has come forward with any numbers or pictures of readings. The one time there was a reading posted, it was like 2 counts, or about 1/10th of 1% change!

If you feel zapping your FK motor helps it, by all means keep doing it. The track owner loves to get his 2 bucks for a zap; they like any money you hand to them. Send one out to Sonic and get Phil to zap it for you, he has a zapper the size of a clothes dryer and it will reverse a Subaru. Get that one back and do a back-to-back test, before and after.

My zapper will NOT even accept an assembled motor, that's is not its intended usage. Possibly the ones that will might be actually banging the arm hard enough when zapping that the arm frees itself up on end play? I have seen those in action and the motor does bang against the end of the cavity? I don't know. I know I have shown numbers to people that have zapped their set-ups in another zapper and then brought them to me and shown them an increase in counts (with ceramics) I make zero claims at FK neos.

There is also the guy on eBay that double zaps up FK motors and claims they are supercharged now? I think they are about twice the cost of a regular over the counter FK mill?

Anything that makes you fell like you have an edge, do it. Perception is more important than reality...

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Rick, the "perception" thing, isn't that a big truth? Many of our discussions about bits and rules and "fair and equal" racing involve perceptions, not mechanics.

Fate

[Phil Irvin]

I have a BOW zapper. I too had problems at first with a Falcon 7 and contacted Monty. He sent me a 1/16" thick piece of foam to space the motor up. It brought back the original motor and I zap all that start slowing after they get very hot or a heavy wall shot.

I have not tried a Hawk 7 yet as I have not had one slow... I have had two stop with tossed wires...

OLPHRT
PHIL I.

[TSR]

So I don't understand what you mean by your comment?

Just take it for what it said, "good luck to you".

[JeremyM]

I did ask the question because I was looking for input and I do appreciate the input from you all. I do believe that you guys may be right that I am losing magnetism. At the same time I have $100 Wing Cars (70 gram with F7 motors) turning 3.1s on a Gerding King. I don't in any way believe I am ruining my motors any more than the soldering iron heating up the back side of the can when I put the motor in the car.

However, after hearing your input I will stop the practice of zapping my F7 motors.

[Neuspeed]

However, after hearing your input I will stop the practice of zapping my F7 motors.

And when you do, let us know your findings.

[TSR]

I don't in any way believe I am ruining my motors any more than the soldering iron heating up the back side of the can when I put the motor in the car.

Jeremy,

It is my opinion and experience that soldering lead wires to the back of almost any FK motor will often, if heated too much, have an adverse effect on its durability and performance. In fact, I consider soldering the lead wires as the single most important factor in the difference in performance between motors.

Why, you will ask? Simple: because the copper fingers holding the brushes will attempt to twist themselves under severe heat that the temperature of an iron and melting solder will often bring. You can see this for yourself by testing an iron on an old motor after you have opened it up.

This is why I recommend the use of clips, themselves soldered to the lead wires.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult, almost impossible, to find the 2mm clips that would really work, so smart cookies like Bryan Warmack (and not quite as smart but trying hard, like me) have used clips for our TSR and Falcon motors.

So now that Topline Inc., a company in which I have a stake, is the distributor for both motors, the first new product of the Falcon line will be just that, a pair of clips that really work, one type for the inline mounting, another for sidewinder/angle-winder mounting. They have already been devised and will be produced in 2011.

As far as re-magnetizing the neodymium magnets in these motors to their original level after their temperature exceeded the 400-degree + that these magnets can take with no loss of strength, as I said, good luck to anyone, but the amount of voltage and current needed is well beyond that of units available to the general public. So as I said before, if some of you feel like paying 20 bucks for a "re-zapped" motor from a small-time bandit on eBay, or are trying to do it yourself using whatever small-size magnetizer on the market, good luck to you all. Praying the Lord might help.

[Mad Mexican]

Amigos,

What PdL is saying that you might need one of these to pull off a re-zap of your F7 motors.

Adios.

[mdiv]

Clips are pretty sweet!

[JeremyM]

I could not agree with you any more on soldering to the tabs. I have a technique I use to tin the tabs with a low level of heat. After both the tab and lead wire are tinned I have another technique to careful solder the two together. We use a lot of motors in $100 car racing, in fact we never race the same motor twice. I have made a lot of motor changes!

If clips were available to eliminate this process I would gladly use them.

Jeremy,
It is my opinion and experience that soldering lead wires to the back of almost any FK motor will often, if heated too much, have an adverse effect on its durability and performance. In fact, I consider soldering the lead wires as the single most important factor in the difference in performance between motors.

[Neuspeed]

I did not know that the TC was that low.

[Ron Hershman]

One and done motors..... now more to the myths of zapping magnets...................

Set-ups can be zapped just fine with or without a slug.... all the magnets used in any slot racing motor made in China are zapped in a "air core" with mulitple magnets zapped at the same time..... 30 to 50 pairs at a time...... they tape them together one group being the north and the other group being the south. When they are zapped in Asia, they are fully saturated and with out the use of a slug of any type.

The only reason a slug is used when zapping set-up is to keep the magnets from hitting one another when the zapper discharges and also to keep from un gluing the magnets in a set-up.

Technically speaking the best slug material is a non ferrous material. One that does not take magnetism...this insures the magnets get the full charge. Using steel slugs will take some of the charge from the magnets and your magnets will not be fully saturated. Arm blanks work fine as slugs..... the material used in arm lams doesn't magnetize.

Gauss readings also do not guarantee your magnets are fully saturated. Just because your reading came up when you zapped your set-up, does not mean they are fully saturated. Years ago when working with TDK on some magnet development..... they had sent me samples of uncharged and charged magnets with a spec sheet showing the gauss readings on the charged magnets. I then charged the uncharged samples on a modified Simco zapper complete with huge Caps in it and on the outside of it, so while I got the same gauss readings as TDK did..... I sent back to TDK the magnets I charged and TDK reported they were ONLY 90% saturated and that was zapping with a steel slug and the magnets in the can.

Many years ago when we zapped on modified Simco zappers....we found that in our Mura X-12 and Box 15 motors replacing the magnets with a new pair after two or three races, the motors performed way better than rezapped magnets after every race. We didn't know it at the time, but it proved that we were not fully saturating the magnets when we re zapped them.

So none of us have the equipment to know if we are fully saturating our magnets or not by just reading the gauss.

I have zapped magnets with slugs, without slugs, with arms as a slug and there was no difference on the gauss readings.

While you may zap your Neo's on a ceramic zapper and the gauss readings may come up... I highly doubt you would be fully saturating the neo magnets.

[flem1959]

How much does the heat from soldering the motor in the car hurt the magnets?