79 replies to this topic

[Neuspeed]

they have a maximum operating temperature of 248 degrees Fahrenheit, and a Curie temperature of 644 degrees F. I use a heat gun to try and stay below 220f
Neodymium Iron Boron magnets are sensitive to heat. If a magnet heated above its maximum operating temperature (176°F (80°C) for standard N grades) the magnet will permanently lose a fraction of its magnetic strength. If they are heated above their Curie temperature (590°F (310°C) for standard N grades), they will lose all of their magnetic properties. Different grades of neodymium different maximum operating and Curie temperatures. Monty has more details on the grade of these f7 neos

[MSwiss]

I pretty much agree with what Ron posted.

I'll only add that if you do have a "cobalt/neo" zapper,
when in the air coil,
be careful to keep the motor properly oriented when zapping,
in other words,with the mags at 12 and 6 o'clock.
According to my old boss, Stu, if you have the mags at 3 and 9 o'clock,
the material will take the charge and orientation will change from
horizontal to vertical.

[Neuspeed]

these are not Sintered NdFeB magnets, I think they are Bonded NdFeB magnets but this is not my Field.

[DOCinCanton]

Philippe, I agree with you 100% concerning the lead wires. Since the tabs are directly attached to the motor brushes, how much heat you use in soldering on the lead wires is critical. Too much heat will simply destroy the spring tension. This is so critical to me that once I solder on lead wires, I do not remove and re-solder them on. I simply run the motor out until it wont go no more!

I want those clips that you mentioned above. How soon can you get them manufactured? I have tried some clips that would fit the D-can endbell. However, the tabs on the Falcon 7 and Hawk 7 motors are alot smaller and I had trouble keeping good contact. I never felt comfortable to run the clips in a race.

Now about the magnet zapper. I have devised a fool-proof test. I will conduct this test Friday evening if I have the time to get down to Bill's racetrack which he has moved to Melbourne.

[Ron Hershman]

How much does the heat from soldering the motor in the car hurt the magnets?

Well if you have to solder the motor in the car....what difference does it matter???? The heat will affect the magnets somewhat.

So don't hold the iron on too long, pre tin everything and it will only take a few second to solder the motor to a chassis with proper heat, flux and solder....60/40 is preferable.

I pretty much agree with what Ron posted.

I'll only add that if you do have a "cobalt/neo" zapper,
when in the air coil,
be careful to keep the motor properly oriented when zapping,
in other words,with the mags at 12 and 6 o'clock.
According to my old boss, Stu, if you have the mags at 3 and 9 o'clock,
the material will take the charge and orientation will change from
horizontal to vertical.

Agree on the orientation when zapping...... when I was at RJR.... the ceramic magnets were ground from blocks and not radially oriented....... so when we zapped the magnets with the "arc" of the motor can/magnets matching the "arc" on the zapper towers all was good.

We could also zap the magnets with the top of the motor facing the north arc tower and the bottom facing the south arc tower.

What you got was magnets with so much "cog" you could barley turn the arm in the motor and it ran hotter than helll.

Another lesson in zapping "orientation"

[TSR]

Dan,
I have run clips I made myself over the past 5 years and never had any trouble. The clips we will be supplying will make things even easier. I do not have a production date yet, but I would think that by early summer we will be able to ship them out.
Here is an example of the clips I and Bryan Warmack have built from 3/32" brass or copper tubing:

[Ron Hershman]

If you guys really want to know how much magnetism you are loosing when the motor gets warm/hot...... run your motor at the track and if any of you have a infa-red heat/temp checker......get a temp the motor runs at after one heat.

In other words take a brand new motor..... run it one or maybe two heats and check the temp of the motor after both heats.

Once you get the temp........ then take another brand new motor, cut it open..... take a gauss reading on the brand new never ran motor.

Then take that new set-up and preheat a toaster over to the temp the motor ran at on the track. After the oven gets to temp... stick the NEW Never ran set-up in the oven and let it sit for 3 minutes and then take it out and read the magnets.... then stick it back in the oven for another three minutes...pull it out and read again.... you will see how much gauss the magnets lose as they get hot.

Then let the set-up cool back down to room temp and you can see if the gauss comes back up as they cool.

The more cycles you do of heating and cooling and measure after each cycle will also show you the ability of the magnet to retains it's strength over the cycles.

You could also take a old motor you have raced for awhile....take it apart and take a gauss reading and compare it to the new motor before you run it on the track.

It's gonna cost you a few bucks, but you just might learn something.

[TSR]

Or, simply run the damned thing and drive like a GOD!

[Ron Hershman]

drive like a GOD!

Would that include Howie??? LOL

[Foamy]

The magnet zapper at Sonic can fully saturate and reverse sintered neo magnets. Unfortunately the coil core is to small in diameter to fit Falcon motors. That pesky arm shaft is in the way of fitting the motor.

[Ron Hershman]

And here we thought you guys at Sonic were the ones "Turbo Blasting" the Ken-O motors on Ebay.

[Pablo]

Zapping F7 mags, that's a hard way to get horsepower....I feel sorry for anybody who "buys into" the Ken O theory

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Boy this is fun reading..................

[Neuspeed]

I think that most are getting the wrong idea about Zapping F7 motors, It can not make the magnet any stronger then its original strength. Its done for consistency from motor to motor. I have yet to have a dog motor. All have been great performers. Have they slowed down after a few races yes. But by that time its the brushes that are worn down.Cost me $2 to have a motor Zapped its has become part of my race program and as long as it works for me with the F7 I have to keep going with it.So what is the bottom line? You have to do what works for you.And yes I have tried not Zapping, Not good results

[Pablo]

Are you, or are you not, the same Baxter who was running the crown gear on the wrong side a couple weeks ago and asking why the car was slow ????
http://slotblog.net/...at-is-going-on/

Pretty steep learning curve, dude.

[Neuspeed]

The same Baxter, the one that never ran Retro before, the one that never ran inline before. But have raced and run enough Falcon motors to know what works for me to get the speed and consistency from them, and as mentioned that I won the race and ran a 4.5 which has been the faster time so far.

My questions was based on which way to set up a Retro; never did I ask how to make my Falcon go faster. I said that it was getting hot and it has never gotten that hot before so I knew something was wrong.

Yes, it was in the wrong way doing the inline thing. Yes, I did not say anything that was not already said. I did research on the magnets in F7 a long time ago. And just like in Retro I got the right answers.

And if someone should ask me in the future which way the motor goes in an inline Retro, should I not be able to tell them what I have learned? I rest my case.

[Ron Hershman]

Well, unless you're zapping your FK magnets on a commercial zapper that would sell for thousands of dollars... you are wasting your dollars 2 bucks at a time.

Sorry... those 2 to 3 hundred dollars jobs ain't going to re zap your neo FK magnets.

Ceramic requires 10,000+ Oersteds.

Sm-Co typically requires 20,000+ Oersteds but may require over 40,000+ Oersteds on some grades.

Nd-Fe-B typically requires 30,000+ Oersteds but may require over 40,000+ Oersteds on some grades.

Bonded Nd-Fe-B or NeoForm requires 35,000+ Oersteds.

So, Rick B... any idea how many Oersteds one of your zappers put out??? Being we know not enough for zapping cobalt... it's pretty safe to say yours or no other 200 to 300 buck unit will either... correct?

[idare2bdul]

You can fool people some of the time and that's enough to make a darn good living.

[JeremyM]

Mike,

You are forgetting about the placebo effect with slot car motors! That $2 zap on a cermanic zapper just makes me feel better.

[The Bugman]

Mike, You are forgetting about the placebo effect with slot car motors! That $2 zap on a cermanic zapper just makes me feel better.

And I'm sure the "littlest iguana" feels good too when she's whipping up on THE BIG BOYS with her $100 wing car with that zapped Falcon 7... LOL,
go get 'em, Alyssa...

[JerseyJohn]

Ron,

What about the Carlisle machine that I have? I believe BOW and Rick units are capacitive discharge.

[Ron Hershman]

JJ...

Your Carlisle zapper ain't going to do anything to FK Neo magnets. Ceramics, yes... any other type of magnet... no.

[Cheater]

Ron commented:

I don't understand why the other thread was locked.

Well, one of the mods must have felt the discussion was about to get too heated and perhaps out of hand. And he may ultimately be proved correct; we'll see.

I've merged the two threads together and unlocked it, but will be keeping an eye on the "temperature" of the discussion. Obviously there are strong and diametrically opposed views on this topic. If posters to this thread can allow those who hold opposite views the courtesy of their opinions, the thread will stay open. If not, it will be closed.

So play nice and please allow others the right to hold opinions you believe are incorrect without indulging in ridicule or sarcasm.

[JeremyM]

I like to use ridicule and sarcasm on those who agree with me as well.

So play nice and please allow others the right to hold opinions you believe are incorrect without indulging in ridicule or sarcasm.

[Rick]

So, Rick B... any idea how many Oersteds one of your zappers put out??? Being we know not enough for zapping cobalt... it's pretty safe to say yours or no other 200 to 300 buck unit will either... correct?

I don't know the Oersteds mine produce. I use a different calculation for measuring strength, too much math the other way. I know how many amp turns it takes to turn ceramics around and how many amp turns it takes to turn around cobalts. I have never made any claims that the Magblaster 2 or 3 will do anything to FK motors; I know it will not. I cannot speak for the others out there about their claims. The only statement that puzzles me is the one saying: it will not reverse FK neos but will bring them back up to factory fresh strength. Herein lies the conflict, if you cannot totally reverse and saturate a magnet, how can you bring it up to fresh factory spec?

There are other conflicting remarks made, but no sense in a debate on those.

Although it may seem odd, the air coil zappers, such as the Magblaster 3, produce a higher zapping charge than those behemoth fixture type zappers. In this case, size doesn't matter. And try fitting a Simco in your slot car box.

If we want to have some fun at the R4, I will bring along my Magblaster 3 and anyone can tote along their zapper and some set-ups and we can zap away in our spare time?

As an aside, yesterday I opened up a used Falcon 7 motor and the magnets gaussed at 1,465 on my meter. Not to mention the F7 arm metered well over 100 counts lower resistance than a Puppy Dog arm and much lower inductance. Using the numbers the FK should run away from a PD like it's tied to a stump. I then put a PD arm in the FK set-up and WOWZA, did it ever sing!

There's your RetroPro motor...