79 replies to this topic

[Neuspeed]

Its just weird to me that the two main slot blogs have totally different out looks on this and findings.

OWH thread #1

OWN thread #2

OWH thread #3

So what does all this mean - East coast/West coast? Who to believe? This is crazy. Am I living in two slot car worlds?

[Cheater]

So what does all this mean - East coast/West coast? Who to believe?

Unfortunately the world is not black and white; there's a lot more gray than anything else...

Believe the results of your own tests and experiments and don't worry about those who hold to the opposing view. And definitely don't make it your goal in life to convert them to your viewpoint, because if their experiences are opposite of yours, you'll never be able to do that.

[Neuspeed]

That is so true and that's why I always state that these are my findings and what works for me. You hit the nail on the head.

[JeremyM]

It's like Biggie and Pac!

So what does all this mean - East coast/West coast? Who to believe? This is crazy. Am I living in two slot car worlds?

[Pablo]

OK you answered my question, Baxter, and I respect that... no problemo.

[Neuspeed]

Hugs and kisses. Well, just maybe a stiff handshake. LOL.

No problem, Pablo. Thanks.

[Ron Hershman]

As an aside, yesterday I opened up a used Falcon 7 motor and the magnets gaussed at 1,465 on my meter. Not to mention the F7 arm metered well over 100 counts lower resistance than a Puppy Dog arm and much lower inductance. Using the numbers the FK should run away from a PD like it's tied to a stump. I then put a PD arm in the FK set-up and WOWZA, did it ever sing!

There's your RetroPro motor...

The FK F7 won't run away from the PD even with the FK arm having better arm readings because of the brushes and brush size in the Falcon 7 motor.

The Puppy Dog arm won't work in that Falcon 7 set-up (unless you use the PD endbell) because the brushes are in a totally different location in the FK motor, not at 3 and 9 o'clock like the PD set-up. Oh and the F7 arm won't work in the PD set-up for the same reasons.

The FK Falcon 7 should have lower resistance as it's 65 of 30 ga wire versus 75 of 31 ga on a Puppy Dog.

The P-S Raptor arm is 65 of 30 ga and probably close to the same resistance.

When it comes to RetroPro... none will be faster than the -12 arm.

[Ron Hershman]

If we want to have some fun at the R4, I will bring along my Magblaster 3 and anyone can tote along their zapper and some set-ups and we can zap away in our spare time?

And it would be a waste of time as no one there will have the correct "instrumentation" to see if you are fully saturating the magnets you are zapping.

[JerseyJohn]

Ron,

What is Debella's plan for the Raptor arm? Is he scrapping the Puppy Dog? I hope not. I have a rather sizable Puppy Dog stable.

[Rick]

The FK F7 won't run away from the PD even with the FK arm having better arm readings because of the brushes and brush size in the Falcon 7 motor.

The Puppy Dog arm won't work in that Falcon 7 set-up (unless you use the PD endbell) because the brushes are in a totally different location in the FK motor, not at 3 and 9 o'clock like the PD set-up. Oh and the F7 arm won't work in the PD set-up for the same reasons.

The FK Falcon 7 should have lower resistance as it's 65 of 30 ga wire versus 75 of 31 ga on a Puppy Dog.

The P-S Raptor arm is 65 of 30 ga and probably close to the same resistance.

When it comes to RetroPro... none will be faster than the -12 arm.

I cut a couple hundred thou off the FK can length and put in a PD endbell.

[Rick]

And it would be a waste of time as no one there will have the correct "instrumentation" to see if you are fully saturating the magnets you are zapping.

Some curious racer can buy a new set of new factory fresh magnets* of their choice, get a reading, and then we can experiment. The same gaussmeter would be used for all the fun.

*You said the factory mags are saturated.

[MSwiss]

What is Debella's plan for the Raptor arm? Is he scrapping the Puppy Dog? I hope not. I have a rather sizable Puppy Dog stable.

There is probably a 0.000000000% chance Pro Slot will be scrapping the Puppy Dog since the IRRA™ won't approve faster motors than it.

The Raptor falls into the situation that many motors do: something for just running around, drag racing, or a house class at a particular raceway.

[Phil Hackett]

I will confirm what Rick and Ron have said about re-magnetizing Neos and Cobalts: the home charger aren't going to get the magnets up to factory fresh new.

The Sonic charger hits over 2500 volts before the capacitor bank is discharged. The machine has high voltage caps, they're not a bunch of surplus caps bunched up in series and parallel to get a charge that high, and there are X many times they can be charged and discharged before they go flat. I have no idea what the replacements cost but it probably exceeds the the replacement value of the machine. There are electrical interlocks on all access panels used for service. This machine can kill (seriously.) It weighs over 400 pounds.

It is calculated that our machine puts out ***about*** 800 joules of energy (look it up!) in a VERY fast discharge and clamping (I'll stop right here because then we're getting into zapper design and that's getting away from zapping magnets). When the machine discharges it sounds like a small caliber rifle shot and we have to cool the magnetizing coil to keep it from affecting the magnetizing field. Something we learned about the hard way. When people have shown up in person they usually jump back when the machine discharges.

It can **completely** reverse cobalt or Neo magnets in 1 shot. We have the instruments to test and it does it easily.

So, no, your zapper that works on ceramic magnets will not do any ***good*** to your neo magnets. In fact, those type of zappers **can** devalue the field if they're applied the wrong way.

[Phil Hackett]

One and done motors..... now more to the myths of zapping magnets...................

Set-ups can be zapped just fine with or without a slug.... all the magnets used in any slot racing motor made in China are zapped in a "air core" with mulitple magnets zapped at the same time..... 30 to 50 pairs at a time...... they tape them together one group being the north and the other group being the south. When they are zapped in Asia, they are fully saturated and with out the use of a slug of any type.

The only reason a slug is used when zapping set-up is to keep the magnets from hitting one another when the zapper discharges and also to keep from un gluing the magnets in a set-up.

Technically speaking the best slug material is a non ferrous material. One that does not take magnetism...this insures the magnets get the full charge. Using steel slugs will take some of the charge from the magnets and your magnets will not be fully saturated. Arm blanks work fine as slugs..... the material used in arm lams doesn't magnetize.

Gauss readings also do not guarantee your magnets are fully saturated. Just because your reading came up when you zapped your set-up, does not mean they are fully saturated. Years ago when working with TDK on some magnet development..... they had sent me samples of uncharged and charged magnets with a spec sheet showing the gauss readings on the charged magnets. I then charged the uncharged samples on a modified Simco zapper complete with huge Caps in it and on the outside of it, so while I got the same gauss readings as TDK did..... I sent back to TDK the magnets I charged and TDK reported they were ONLY 90% saturated and that was zapping with a steel slug and the magnets in the can.

Many years ago when we zapped on modified Simco zappers....we found that in our Mura X-12 and Box 15 motors replacing the magnets with a new pair after two or three races, the motors performed way better than rezapped magnets after every race. We didn't know it at the time, but it proved that we were not fully saturating the magnets when we re zapped them.

So none of us have the equipment to know if we are fully saturating our magnets or not by just reading the gauss.

I have zapped magnets with slugs, without slugs, with arms as a slug and there was no difference on the gauss readings.

While you may zap your Neo's on a ceramic zapper and the gauss readings may come up... I highly doubt you would be fully saturating the neo magnets.

In our zapper a slug must be used because unless the glue holding the magnets in is perfect in bonding and strength they'll come loose and get pulverized. It has happened several times. Iron bases slugs aren't a good idea in high power zappers either.

Iron is not the best way to conduct magnetic paths. That's why the hot rodded Simco didn't do the job.

Sonic has a proper, high end Gaussmeter that uses calibrated probes (check out www.lakeshore.com : we use one one those) Saturation CAN be measured. Test instruments are expensive for a reason.

[Ron Hershman]

*You said the factory mags are saturated.

Yes because the MFG's of the magnets usually have equipment that is "overkill" in relationship to what it takes to actually saturate a magnet.

In magnet terms...there is a difference between "charging" and "saturating" magnets. Something that was actually proven to me years ago when working with TDK on a Ceramic Magnet project and what we found out when we discovered brand new magnets were better than ones we had rezapped...... we were "charging" them and not "saturating" them.

And if ya really want to get technical...........................

All "magnetizable" materials are at all times as fully magnetized as their thermal state permits. This is because orbiting unpaired electron spins are the source of atomic magnetic moments. These fully magnetized atomic magnets assemble themselves into clumps, or domains, with the same orientation. The domains then orient themselves to cancel each other so there is no measurable external magnetic field. Magnetizing is the process of turning all domains to a common alignment so the magnet exhibits an external magnetic field.

The energy required to magnetize a material depends on a number of factors, and the amount of energy retained is related to the geometry and coercivity of the magnet material. Magnetizing to saturation implies that all domains are to be rotated into common alignment. In the past, the generally accepted criteria for “full saturation” was that there should be no measurable increase in induction when twice the magnetizing energy is applied. For large, high-energy magnets this would be impossibleimpractical, but this can be done with small-scale samples.

Material manufacturers usually state the field required to magnetize a part having a geometry that yields the maximum energy product.

Gauss

The unit of magnetic induction, B, in the CGS electromagnetic system. The flux density of the earth's magnetic field at the surface is about 1 gauss. One gauss is equal to one maxwell per square centimeter or 10-4 tesla. Gauss Rating alone is not enough to indicate the strength of a magnet. The Gauss Rating is a unit of measurement that relates to the strength of a magnet and is connected with the density of lines of magnetic force coming from a magnet. However, the pulling power or strength of a magnet is also related to the actual physical size of a magnet. Larger magnets have more mass than smaller magnets and so can store a greater amount of magnetic energy. So you could have a magnet with a very high gauss rating which will in fact have less overall strength that a much bigger magnet with a lower gauss rating. To complicated things further, gauss magnetic strength is often misquoted or exaggerated. One common misunderstanding is the difference between two different ways of measuring strength: he Manufactures Rating and the actual Surface Gauss Rating of a magnet. The Manufacturers Rating (Magnetic Remanence (Br)) of the magnetic material is a property of the magnet when measured in the manufactures original magnetising equipment, in what's called a closed circuit. It indicates the magnetic field strength remaining inside the magnet and represents a grade of magnetic material (N48 ~ 13,800 gauss; N45 ~ 13,300 gauss and N40 ~ 13,000 gauss). This measurement is much higher than the surface gauss reading. The Surface Gauss Rating represents the magnetic flux density generated outside the magnet body.

[Phil Hackett]

Listen to Ron. I won't repeat what he has just posted BUT I will add that the fixture used to hold and charge the magnets is just as important as the power of the zapper. The power needs to be **directed** the correct way to **saturate**.

It's a system.

[Ron Hershman]

In our zapper a slug must be used because unless the glue holding the magnets in is perfect in bonding and strength they'll come loose and get pulverized. It has happened several times. Iron bases slugs aren't a good idea in high power zappers either.

Iron is not the best way to conduct magnetic paths. That's why the hot rodded Simco didn't do the job.

Sonic has a proper, high end Gaussmeter that uses calibrated probes (check out www.lakeshore.com : we use one one those) Saturation CAN be measured. Test instruments are expensive for a reason.

Ding ding ding....... we have another winner!!!!

Phil would share with us what material your magnet slugs are made of????

And if you stuck a Falcon 7 motor assembled into your air core and hit the button......it would be shattered magnet time...correct?

One other zapping story...... I was standing at a friends house...a guy who really knew his stuff about zapping and just to prove how a ceramic zapper would not zap Cobalt material correctly.... he stuck a set-up in the zapper with a slug and when he discharged..... one of the cobalt magnets came out of the set-up like a .22 pistol.

Scary stuff.

[Ron Hershman]

Listen to Ron. I won't repeat what he has just posted BUT I will add that the fixture used to hold and charge the magnets is just as important as the power of the zapper. The power needs to be **directed** the correct way to **saturate**.

It's a system.

Yep and where the set-up/magnets are positioned in the air core is just as important.

[Phil Hackett]

The slugs are white stuff....

The motor..... IF there's enough gap between the armature and magnets MAYBE... I don't know these motors well (I don't race any more and haven't taken motors apart in years) but I'm guessing IF the magnets are held in mechanically, they'd be OK. If they're glued in.... maybe not so good. Then there's the factor our fixture might not be big enough to put an assembled motor in to.

We have collapsed cans before.... C-cans .... that was in the "learning" phase when we first got the machine.

For giggles once.... We took a 3/4" x 10" round steel bar and loaded it into the fixture and shot it across the shop! 50 feet away the bar hit the wall HARD! We all just started laughing as it had LOTS of velocity! We have a miniature rail gun in our shop!

[Phil Hackett]

Yep and where the set-up/magnets are positioned in the air core is just as important.

Hence the mention of fixturing....

[Ron Hershman]

The slugs are white stuff....

There goes that "theory" of having to use a metal slug. Right out the window.


The Falcon mags are just super glued in with one spring clip..... it would be shatter time for sure if zapped as an assembled motor.

[Foamy]

I zapped a Proslot motor that has Falcon 7 magnets with no slug. No problems, but factory installed magnets will most likely fall out. . .

[Rick]

With the commercial more powerful zappers, no slug would be needed. Like I said Phils zapper would magnetize a Toyaota. But with small personal ceramic zappers a slug is needed to help along the charge. You are comparing a few hundred amp turns to a machine that is a few hundred thousand amps turns.

Magnets are like a sponge and water. Just as a sponge will pick and hold so much water, and if you put another drop on the sponge, one will fall out. It is what we consider saturated. Our Ceramic magnets are the same way. You can zap them with Phils zapper or Alphas zapper and get them back and read the gauss, which is what we in the hobby use for checking magnets. Gauss and magnet strength are two different animals, I will agree on that. As your copy and paste from the google search explains, magnet size is important to the power of the magnet. Just like when we have a magnet that gausses 10,000 and stick another like it, to the original magnets, you will not come up with a 20,000 gauss reading and each magnet added on will have diminishing returns in raising the gauss reading.

All of this is just making more confusion on the original question.

Fixturing is important and that is the reason the cavity in the Magblaster 3 is what it is, it is the best compromise I could come up with for both C and D can set-ups. The bobbins are custom size made for this unit. I also make special adapters to do HO magnets. The zapper wants to spin the set-up to the neutral position when it zaps. The actual zapping only take a small fraction of a second to occur. The rest is just there because that is the nature of the beast and the slowness of using the compenants we use. Just to make it more confusing, when the zapper fires into the coil, the coil then wants to reverses the charge send that charge back into itself, which could actually demagnetize your efforts. SO you must over charge to compensate. There are ways to counteract this electrically.

Want to have some fun search the internet and find the dude that makes the kit to make a single use machine that will actually shrink a quarter to the size of a nickle. LOL or go look at magnet guns. As Phil said they are very dangerous if used improperly and could kill you.

[Phil Hackett]

With the commercial more powerful zappers, no slug would be needed. Like I said Phils zapper would magnetize a Toyaota.

No, not that big... but it's rated to saturate a 30 pound piece of Alnico with the proper fixture. Sub-ounce super magnets are not a problem.... especially with the coil we have. Alnico isn't exactly easy to charge and saturate.

"Thousands of amp turns".... bwa hahahahahahah.....

[Ron Hershman]

With the commercial more powerful zappers, no slug would be needed. Like I said Phils zapper would magnetize a Toyaota. But with small personal ceramic zappers a slug is needed to help along the charge. You are comparing a few hundred amp turns to a machine that is a few hundred thousand amps turns.

Magnets are like a sponge and water. Just as a sponge will pick and hold so much water, and if you put another drop on the sponge, one will fall out. It is what we consider saturated. Our Ceramic magnets are the same way. You can zap them with Phils zapper or Alphas zapper and get them back and read the gauss, which is what we in the hobby use for checking magnets. Gauss and magnet strength are two different animals, I will agree on that. As your copy and paste from the google search explains, magnet size is important to the power of the magnet. Just like when we have a magnet that gausses 10,000 and stick another like it, to the original magnets, you will not come up with a 20,000 gauss reading and each magnet added on will have diminishing returns in raising the gauss reading.

All of this is just making more confusion on the original question.

Fixturing is important and that is the reason the cavity in the Magblaster 3 is what it is, it is the best compromise I could come up with for both C and D can set-ups. The bobbins are custom size made for this unit. I also make special adapters to do HO magnets. The zapper wants to spin the set-up to the neutral position when it zaps. The actual zapping only take a small fraction of a second to occur. The rest is just there because that is the nature of the beast and the slowness of using the compenants we use. Just to make it more confusing, when the zapper fires into the coil, the coil then wants to reverses the charge send that charge back into itself, which could actually demagnetize your efforts. SO you must over charge to compensate. There are ways to counteract this electrically.

Want to have some fun search the internet and find the dude that makes the kit to make a single use machine that will actually shrink a quarter to the size of a nickle. LOL or go look at magnet guns. As Phil said they are very dangerous if used improperly and could kill you.

Ok for shites and giggles..... I just zapped a pair of uncharged dead C-Can magnets in your mini zapper with NO slug.... the gauss read 913 and 915 on the magnets after two hits.

Then I took the same pair and zapped them with a slug.... two hits..... the gauss numbers are unchanged after zapping with the slug.

The question remains...are they fully saturated??? I do not have the equipment to know for sure if they are or are not. I can only read the gauss and only reading guass does not tell if the magnets are fully saturated.

The only way I will know is when they run on the track without having the equipment to check it.

You can over saturate magnets to where they "reverse" and weaken. Like your sponge theory..... if you drop one drop of water on the fully saturated sponge you will lose one drop....now if you take the same full sponge and pour 8 ounces of water on the sponge rather quickly.... when the dripping is done.... the sponge may be holding less water than it did before you blasted the 8 ounces of water in it.

While we may only have a gauss meters in the hobby to read our magnets...... those meters only tell a fraction of what is going on in and with the magnets.

Just because two magnets maybe have the same gauss readings that does not mean they have the same energy.... so while they may be matched by gauss readings....they could be way off in energy and matching the energy of the magnets is way more important than matching by gauss.

You can have really high gauss readings and if you have low energy... you are going to have problems...higher energy with lower gauss would be a better magnet.

So back to the original deal.......... if you are zapping your FK Neo's on a 200 to 660 buck zapper.... you are wasting your time and money.

But hey.... if you think it's doing something....oh and it's doing something..... then party on Garth. You are probably actually weakening the magnets causing the motor to rev up and be less magnet bound and it's running faster. If you were truly saturating them back to full strength.... then your motor would be running slower.

Notice the FK Neo motors get faster as they run a few heats....... why???? Because the magnets are getting weaker and you are also loosing your brakes.... another sign the magnets are going south.