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The Duffy "Oxcart - Nagyka" progression


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#51 Duffy

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 06:22 PM

I'm generally of the mindset to throw it against the wall and see what sticks


I made some extra bucks as a proxy landlord in Santa Ana, ~'73 or so, in a little fourplex within spitting distance of El Toro airbase. One of my more interesting chores was cleaning up a recently-vacated apartment, where the lessor was in the habit of tossing a strand of spaghetti up to the ceiling to test for doneness; and then didn't bother to take it down. For many years, evidently.

Anyway, applying this test to our chassis would mean--they're ready to eat.

OHH KAAY. So:

Got some very satisfyin' building time in today, to the temporary relief of the Dust Bunny Militia currently encamped in my living room. I put up a new IRRA Roadkill F1 chassis, based on that long conversation with tonyp that I mentioned earlier:

Duffy 56 Oxkill 01.jpg

The idea here is to date the vertical flex from a point just for'd of the motor, & use multiple rails to limit horizontal flexure and twist. Reasoning that two rails are twice as multiple than what I've been using, I dug into the .055" tube and went crazy. Other pertinent numbers are: bracket, rear plate & guide tongue .050" stock, pans .040" & center pan .031".

Funny how few 1/16" single-rail chassis we see anymore--smaller, multi-rail is the current fashion. This one splits the difference, really for no good reason. I want to see what happens here, and then think about what to do next.

Duffy 56 Oxkill 02.jpg

See the little notches in the side pans: they limit how far the solder joint wicks along against the perimeter wire. --Mostly. You see the left-hand outer side, at the bottom of this pic, my wick was a bit more persistent. I've broken it loose and routed it out with a razor saw, but candor forces me to tell you it was there once.

Unfortunately I can't get to the track this week to play with this. I'll tell you what happened next week.

Duffy
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#52 tonyp

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 06:25 PM

Very nice..

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#53 Gator Bob

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:42 PM

El-Dante Angel Hair & Notches.

RTE .... mhmmm good. :good:
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#54 Duffy

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:17 AM

We'll have to see. I got a couple areas of doubt--the center pan's vulnerable, and works backward to my intent of flexing in the middle. Mostly, I'm glad I've got to the point where I can apply my understanding to something like this and actually see how it do or don't work on the track, with a glimmering of why. Stay tuned.
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#55 tonyp

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:26 AM

Got my duffy dampers. using them on my next chassis.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#56 Duffy

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:06 PM

Got my duffy dampers. using them on my next chassis.


Jeez, man, I'm not takin' the blame for that name! Sounds like "Depends" for slot racers!
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#57 Gator Bob

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 12:53 AM

puffy pampers?
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#58 Duffy

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:42 AM

Continuing with this discussion, trying to puzzle-out some of the "why" of a chassis for those crazies to whom such things are important (yah, I took my clarinet apart, too, to understand how to play the thing. It's jus' how I roll.)
We're gonna bring in a couple of other voices here (one of 'em dead...woooo...) to add to the mix. Gettin' interesting now, at least to me. Hope it entertains.

The idea here is to date the vertical flex from a point just for'd of the motor, & use multiple rails to limit horizontal flexure and twist. Reasoning that two rails are twice as multiple than what I've been using, I dug into the .055" tube and went crazy. Other pertinent numbers are: bracket, rear plate & guide tongue .050" stock, pans .040" & center pan .031".
Funny how few 1/16" single-rail chassis we see anymore--smaller, multi-rail is the current fashion. This one splits the difference, really for no good reason. I want to see what happens here, and then think about what to do next.


Duffy 56 Oxkill 01.jpg

Got some time out on the track this weekend with this car, and it's pretty positive so far.
I didn't have tyres soft enough for the track on this day, and my testing was done with HVR Wonder mags straight from the bottle and terribly conical; even at that, the car was behaving quite predictably. One other guy got his hands on it and started out tentative, bringing it up, a little more--& finally spun in the donut after 25 laps. "That's the flattest thing I've ever driven." Okay so far.
Like I say, we haven't got the tires right yet, but the transfer of weight rearward is just getting better all the time, and the stiffening-up of the rear hasn't hurt anything I've seen yet.

tonyp suggested this forward-flex spot as a further development of the Twistamon concept, without the "rear steer" gobblygook of that roller; and it took into consideration that most all the venues I'd be campaigning the car in were markedly swoopy and decidedly not-flat.
Which brings in the "other voices"--

Kettleson 1.jpg

Mike Kettleson showed us this chassis a few weeks back. It was actually just yesterday that I flashed to the obvious similarity in our rear ends (no quips from you, JJ) and wrote him about it. Here're his pertinent comments:

I believe its basically the rear end that's similar, I use a wide bracket, helps rear end grip and stability, a axle when fitted with a 29 tooth gear just clears the bearing of the motor very little in front or behind the axles,These are tricks I used in 1/32 F1 in the 80's before my last retirement. I solder a plate between the main rails and put a raised bar along the C/L of the chassis which greatly increases the rigidity vertically, with it on push down on the motor and the tires squish down, with it off the chassis bends and decks. My pans are completely floating, almost independent of the rest of the chassis and allow the body to float. Incidentally I have abandoned the tube front axle, in a knock the axle bends in the tube and locks the wheels , I use 3/32 piano wire because it's easy to straighten in a heat.

Interesting for the differences, and I wondered how much those differences were influenced by the different venues the cars are built for.
Mike says this series of cars has been dominant on the RACEWAY 81 track, check it out--nice and flat, with some wicked Esses in the short chute.
Now, when I started messing around with rising-rate resistance "Torsion" stuff, Prof. Fate talked a lot about the application of movement and where the whole idea came from. I channel him here--fingertips on the table, everybody--

A second reason we used floppy parts in chassis was to help deal with the bumps and irregularities in the old tracks; and the proof of that is, on our smoother modern tracks a plain solid pan isn't that much slower than a really loose car, when properly set up. That's the simple version.
--But there's a catch, and that's the Flat Track! See, even the best flat track isn't really flat. A couple of thousandths lump in the wrong spot will launch you just as sure as a big one; so you have to deal with that. Banked tracks, you can count on G-force to keep you nailed down--even a tilted corner section will do it, if the car hits something it's almost instantly landing "uphill" on that tilt and doesn't have time to react to the bump. So, we've learned we can get our movements down smaller and actually get an advantage, because larger movements take longer to STOP reacting, sometimes too long--and that's a bad thing. You want the car to settle down by the time it's straightening out.
Flat tracks, you lose all that advantage. There, it's back to building in your motion to time-out when you need it gone.
--But YOU don't need to worry about that!

Sooooo...the much-oversimplified shakedown to all this...
Mike's got a stiff center section with full-floating pans, body floating with the pans.
Lotsa guys in my neighborhood are running multi thin wires for some vertical-NOT-horizontal flex, and varying degrees of twist too.
What do you think, how much of these two paradigms relate directly to the track?

The body mount thing is worth noting. A coupla Florida guys talked me into the notion that a firmer mount in front and a floating mount in the back is a good thing--Rick Moore, especially, typically uses a third pintube forward of the front tyres. I've gone away from fancy floating pintubes, for simplicity, but I count on the flop of my inner pans at the rear to approximate what Rick's suggesting.

How I do run on. Off to some painkillers, then try to get to the track again tonight for more thrash.
Duffy
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#59 Noose

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:24 AM

Just for the record, The Duffmeister ran this car this weekend in our F1 race. I took it out as did Matt Bruce and this thing works. Really works. Without any fine tuning (it had a slippy gear mesh, etc.) it was turning A Main qualifying times without a problem.

Hmmmm....

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#60 Duffy

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:27 PM

Thanks, Noose, it proved out the concept tonyp & I hammered out (well, maybe he hammered it into ME, more like) pretty well for a rough first outing.
Yah, Matt pointed out the gear mesh, it was literally on the outer points of the teeth and sawing 'em down, so there goes a fifth of your power, and (I arrogantly claim) at least a tenth per lap. I just checked, I got like .011" slop back there; Took a good whack during that brutal race--shoulda handed him the car before the carnage!

Having this one running this well, I want to get a six-rail into the works for comparison. I will think on the possible advantage of six .047" rails over that shortened distance, and if it turns out hopeful, maybe eight of .039"--hey, who needs a surface grinder?

One step at a time. Just trying to see what's going on in there.

Duffy
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#61 tonyp

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:47 PM

Congrats Noose was raving about it when I spoke to him this morning. Looks like you are on the way to chassis god status.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#62 Duffy

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:22 PM

---No. If I am very, very lucky, I am somewhere on my way to "Chassis UNDERSTANDING" status. A lot more important, & useful, & satisfying.

Trying to keep my mouth shut (no! really!) and my ears open. Everything I'm doing, I've got from people telling me things. That's what this thread's trying to document. Hope it works out.

Duf
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#63 cosmicnode

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:35 PM

Hi Duffy.

We ran at North London last weekend and Graeme Stephenson won F1 with a clone of my chassis. Richy Kettleson was second with one I had built, I finished fifth I think.

If you look at the UKRRA page for THIS EVENT you will see it's a very tight track. Graeme is probably the best racer in the club and a former National Champion, he was racing with a broken right wrist (he's right-handed), and won three out of four events. He reckons that this style of chassis works so well it's a "no brainer" to copy it.

Seeing how well this worked on a F1 chassis I thought it would work well as a Saloon chassis, putting Mustangs, etc., on Can-Am chassis upsets the balance with those heavier, higher, non-aerodynamic shells. I started to build around January, making the rear end and rails; unfortunately the rules for saloon were changed from 3-1/8" wide to 3" wide. This obviously affected the bracket, I left it unfinished for around four weeks until deciding to finish as a Can-Am, giving the chassis to Richy to assemble into a complete car. The result you can see below.

This is the fastest and best handling Can-Am at Raceway 81. Being originally designed as a saloon it's 4-1/4" wheelbase, weighs 128 grams less body, and is way easier to drive than the 102 gram car. Very smooth, feels slow when driven but that's when putting up the fastest lap times. It's won in his hands every time it races and also finished second at North London, which was his first visit to that track.

_DSC0004_003_DSC0004.JPG

Retro Can Am.JPG

_DSC0003_002_DSC0003.JPG
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#64 Duffy

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:28 PM

Hah. Mike, that is just all manner of interesting.

Thanks for your pics and comments in this thread especially, it's accumulating experiences in one place around some similar concepts getting worked out in similar / not so similar ways. Great sharing.

You're one layer of motion past what I'm heading for in a Can-Am... I'd been mulling something wider, based on the promise of the F1 tray, and then I got pushed toward the tonyp "Twistamon" concept, but flexing at the forward position we're playing with here. Sounds like fun, but I'd really want to do a side-by-side build, and the two ideas aren't really comparable. See what tomorrow brings. Nice thing about these trays, they build fast.

Duf
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#65 mrprostreet

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:00 PM

Duffy: I am very glad to hear that all your hard work has paid off on your latest f1 build.

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#66 Duffy

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:04 PM

You've no idea how long I practiced that pose.
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#67 mrprostreet

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:07 PM

Good to see you enjoy a little fun too!

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#68 Duffy

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:07 PM

I was waiting to discuss this car 'til it was fired in anger, but since I've had a couple good workouts with it (and missed my race today!) I figure I can get the public part over with.

Duffy 59 - 60 Nagaika.jpg

These are the widebody development of the pretty-darn-successful F1 chassis we've shown earlier, using the same "Forward Flex" concept. Bracket & tongue .063" Duffy hardware, all other plate is .040" - center rails .047, perimeter & axle hangers .055 & rear strap .063.

The rest of this gobblygook is copy&pasted from "Duffy's Evil Lair" on Facebook, so if you've already seen it there you can go.

Duffy 59 Nagaika 03.jpg

A couple nights' testing of this chassis shows it to have some good potential. Right out of the box, the car just loved the larger-radius turns but was a little cranky in the tight ones: discounting all the variables of track & rubber (and the car got progressively better over ~40-50 laps, on Koford Soft Wonder), it'd swing out & pop unpredictably. A couple grams of lead at the very back helped a lot - and also moved the balance point from about 60% to 65% to rear from guide pivot. At least now I have something I can take to a race and it'll tell me what the track wants; at this stage in my learning that's a big thing.

Duffy 59 Nagaika 04.jpg


Like I said,the NAGAIKA sled builds on the "forward flex" concept suggested by tonyp, keeping the rear of the center section stiff to the point just athwart the front of the motor; and balancing at an ideal 71.5% from guidepost aft. It's working out pretty cool in my F1 roller, but I've added a twist here by running the perimeter wires and pans back past the flexpoint. As you can see here, the perimeter wire is downstopped by the center section's "sponsons" while the spring of the inner pans is upstopped by that little wire loop hiding under the rear pintube.

Duffy 59 Nagaika 05.jpg

The whole wiry mess, from center section through perimeter wires through front axle mounts, is meant to flex as a collection of elements bound together BUT without any stress-risers taking an impact by itself. So, the axle carriers are set in parts of the front assembly that should flex a little, carrying some flex through their members and on and on and...it seemed to work in the OXCART series & I haven't had an axle come loose there in a year of brutal driving.

Duffy 59 Nagaika 08 Vanity 2 WebSize.jpg

Here's the Vanity Shot of the roller all dressed up. That's a Noose driver in the office, by the way.

This puppy would've been blooded this afternoon. Would've. If I hadn't taken a tumble down a stairwell yesterday, & decided to sleep 'til 9 today to let the meds wick out. If I hadn't then sat in Knee Jerk City traffic for an hour, making my ETA at the track approx. the middle of the B-main for this event. If, If, If.

Nex' Time.

Oh, forgot to mention: those ducts behind the rear tyres have been "smushed" kinda subtle-like with a MonoKote iron...to clear the rear tyres. One of those little sacrifices made to incorporate the Duffy "Foward-Snoot" theory of body placement. It's - technical.

By the way, if anybody's popping neck vertebrae trying to read the far fender: it says "Evil Bucks Craftsman."

Duf
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#69 Duffy

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 10:40 PM

After a long side-trip into the Wallenda/Gilded Splinters stuff, I've got to talking with another fellow about getting out a few RTR rollers for a local series using IRRA FK Coupes. Here's the test horse for that run.

 

Df 80 DF 01.JPG

 

This sled is right in the NAGYKA pedigree, stiffened rear section with short rails forward, but this one sports a shaker pan. Less bending, more initial motion to play with & adjust. We're starting out with just six rails of .047, and in this case the inboard courses are soldered their full length to help with rhomboid flex. We'll see if the short free length is still too soft.

 

Df 80 DF 02.JPG

 

I tried to not go crazy with multiple-bend segments that'd need lotsa fancy layout & care, and I prolly can get this down even simpler. I've got the bendy axle carrier down to something I can do in my sleep, got a little bag of pre-bent bits already for 'em. and I like it.

 

Df 80 DF 03.JPG

 

Wire's all .047" 'cept the rear bale of .062" & .039" tie (not bite) bar. Brass is .04" with .050" bracket.

Motion is stopped pretty severely in all directions both front & rear, stops & tubing allowing .006" but with a real loose & sloppy feel to that - I've been in rising-rate torsion structure too long, I dunno shake when it waves a stick at me.

 

Df 80 DF 04.JPG

 

Thrashing right down to the end, I was handed a real surprise when a veteran body - the one in the post right above this - pinned right exactly into my willy-nilly-placed tubes here. How often do that happen?

The car tips 113.4gr as it sits; that's with 58gr. in the sled and a set of Gascarnut's double-BB fronts.

Toss it on the track.

Duf


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#70 Duffy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:34 PM

A followup on the DANSE FAMBEAUX roller, after its first blooding at Dom's Raceway in Cream Ridge NJ.

 

Dom's features a sort of donutless Hillclimb, a real charming & challenging track that really has four distinct faces: "Hillclimb" on the right, the left a kinky "flat track with elevation change," and Hi and Lo lanes. You basically don't drive nowhere the same. It's a kick, and I frankly drove it horribly but had a ball doin' so.

But the car was magical. Handed it to a couple friends and they loved it. It dove deeper into corners than we had nerve to go & came out aggressively on the other side, forgave most of my errors - while those two Hot Guys couldn't get it loose.

Real happy with this first outing. Now test it on a punchbowl for comparison.

 

Duf


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#71 SlotStox#53

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:49 PM

Great to hear it was such a successful first outing. Sounds a really sure footed ride , one to really push the limits of both car and track :)

#72 Noose

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:36 PM

I drove the car and flat out told Duffy I would race it. Mike Katz felt the same way. This car took very tricky 180 dead flat and in rails. A true success in my book.

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#73 Duffy

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:34 AM



I drove the car and flat out told Duffy I would race it. Mike Katz felt the same way. This car took very tricky 180 dead flat and in rails. A true success in my book.

 

I always remind us & me especially - these Duffy threads are exploring my edumacation, hopefully for the benefit of some other guys who're figuring out this scratchbulding thing and might stumble upon this. So:

 

You get a lot of insight into what your chassis is doing by handing it to somebody for a few laps; then, go down and watch the car in some spot you're having trouble with. See how he's getting it through that corner - how far in, how quick the power comes back on & where, how the car kicks, or tilts, or chatters, wottever. You can see what's going on in there & try to figure how the chassis' doing it & what might be needed.

Also at the same time, watch that driver: watch his body language, watch him going "okay, let's push it more here - " you can see how and where he's worrying and where he's comfortable. More data for you, sometimes even better than the comments he'll have afterwards.

Another bit: watch what a guy's looking at when he first handles your car - he might heft it for a sense of its mass, or kinda suspend it between fingers to get its mass distribution (just noticed Noose doing that yesterday, never occurred to me a quick check is nearly as good as doing it at the jig!), then gently twist & test the shaky stuff, & on like that. The places he lingers over or does twice, those're things you want to ask about or take a look at yourself.

Doing these things, you often get data you wouldn't just get from a guy's comments. You might get things he hasn't thought of himself, things he takes for granted to the point that he forgets to think of 'em - in the same way that our setup thinking becomes second-nature and leaves room for more thinking on top of what we do now. A pitcher doesn't "think" his way through a curve ball, any more than we tie our shoes. Chassis set-up, diagnostics, driving - they get like that naturally. Thinking a little now about how to think, that may help move the process along a little better.

 

Duf


  • SlotStox#53 likes this
Michael J. Heinrich
1950-2016
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And I am awaiting
perpetually and forever
a renaissance of wonder

#74 Half Fast

Half Fast

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:17 PM

That's a real nice looking chassis Duf!

 

Looks like rearward weight distribution works well.

 

I also like the axle-tubeless design

 

Cheers


Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now

 

 






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