84 replies to this topic

[Cheater]

Duffy,

That's actually doable, if you want. LOL!

I'm still trying to come to grips with tags and tagging. Anyone have a McGuffey's on tagging?

[MSwiss]

The facts that we're using very crude toothforms on inline slot car gears and that the crown gears are made of a material with some level of self-lubricating properties is why hypoid works for slot cars IMO.

It's funny how the innate competitiveness of slot racers leaks out into different segments of the hobby.

Just as we all KNOW we're faster on the racetrack than anyone else (given the same equipment, of course) we also often insist our choices in design, body, chassis, controller, etc., are the best, the obvious choices, clearly superior, etc. LOL!!

The late Larry Shephard said the ultimate downfall of slot racing would be the inherent competitiveness of the participants. I still think the problem is manageable, fool that I am.

Greg,

Both of the above are well said and very true.

To go along with the crude toothform, IMO, the large (48) pitch of the Parma King Crown also contributes to the reason good gear meshes can be achieved in the offset/hypoid configuration.

[Cheater]

Mike,

Thank you, that's exactly right.

Don't try running 64p or 72p crowns (if you can even find them...) in hypoid. Just will not work... for long.

I think Pablo tried it once. LOL!

[MSwiss]

Or maybe one of the frequent posters from Ohio, Brian M or Mike P?

[Rick]

Thanks for the answers and contributions on this topic. Of course every one has their opinions on just about every thing and facts seem to be few and far between.

I have only done one test to compare the two and it was with my power supply. IMO if there is some real advantage of one over the other it should show up in amp draw. The amp meter reads in .01 and after trying the test and seeing actually zero difference in the amp meter, I saw no reason to go any further. Maybe should have checked RPM of both, but didn't.

Presenty I have one car that is so quiet, you would guess it is set up straight, but it is not. I have one car that has a really unique sound and runs very well, it has a straight pinion on it, in hypoid configuration, and it as been on the car for months and many laps.

It's neat to read all the things some people think is the way to go and how some limited testing will result is a hard cold truth or appear that way. LOL I wish I could count over the last 25 years I had thought I found a truth only to be proven wrong from some guy that did it totally different and it worked great for him.

Now where are the really fast people at in this thread? Why don't they chime in and conribute?

[Noose]

OK sometimes I'm fast. I have found that I like hypoid set-ups and get extremely smooth and quiet meshes with them. I only had one car with a non-hypoid set-up and just never liked it. Most of the time I rarely even have to do the ole lighter burn-in trick.

[Ron Hershman]

Not just the motor, everything needs to be as low as you can get it. There's a reason Hershman runs bodies lightly painted. The body and the paint is very high CG weight.

I've built both, and used cars with both, and never noticed a performance advantage. In theory the lower center of gravity should benefit the car, but in testing there is no difference.

Well, believe it or not... no "hypoid" here... and like Cap mentions... I could not tell a difference in "handling" between hypoid and non-hypoid.

But then again, I could never tell in difference between running a 1/8" or 3/32" axle... or a chassis with BBs in the rear or oilites.

One thing to remember... if you have cars hypoid and non-hypoid... don't mix those crown gears up between the two. LOL.

What's most important is finding the right pinion that's not too hard nor too soft... the hardness varies batch to batch.

[Rick]

That is an interesting statement: "What's most important is finding the right pinion that's not too hard nor too soft... the hardness varies batch to batch."

Could you explain how the pinion hardness plays into this all and how do you measure it?

[Duffy]

Now where are the really fast people at in this thread? Why don't they chime in and conribute?

This is a trick question, right?

"Because......not hovering around on SlotBlog gives 'em more time to get.......FAST?........."

[Rick]

is a trick question, right?

"Because...... not hovering around on SlotBlog gives 'em more time to get... FAST?..."

Well, the fastest of the fast has chimed in and throws a knuckle sinker in the bottom of the ninth...

[Duffy]

... I could not tell a difference in "handling" between hypoid and non-hypoid. But then again, I could never tell...

This is particularly telling: I just got through talking with Noose about his observation of Ron's driving concentration (I'm not giving it away here!), and - well, it kinda reinforces what I just said about Fast Guys.

Certainly, there is a level to strive for in the build and setup of your ride. But then, you must be capable of driving it to take advantage of every little nuance you built in, and then it opens up a whole 'nother garden of possibilities. But only then.

When I was doing a lot of bicycle riding, my local shop owner used to joke about the guys that'd but the Best bike and then endlessly buy the Best and Newest and btw Best aftermarket upgrades they could find, and sometimes swap out for the Newest frame to put their Best gear on - and so he'd do the work and charge the bucks to the guy, and say "There, that'll get his 50 miles a week to the Tour de France..."

Duffy

[Pablo]

Don't try running 64p or 72p crowns (if you can even find them...) in hypoid. Just will not work... for long. I think Pablo tried it once. LOL!

Your memory is poor, sir. Here are the facts:
Slot.it gears are approx. 50 something pitch.
I have raced non-hypoid Slot.it gears in Retro with Falcon 7 motors, no failures.
I have raced hypoid setup with special hypoid Slot.it gears (the white ones are hypoid) with Falcon 7 motors many times, no failures.
As soon as I tried the Slot.it hypoid gears with the added horsepower of a PS 4002B, the crowns failed.
Note: Slot.it hypoid crowns are designed for CW motor rotation at can end only.
Conclusion: Slot.it hypoids are real smooth but I did not notice any added speed, so I went back to the Parma pink/angled steel combo. It simply works.

[Cheater]

LOL! Pablo, I stand corrected. I do remember now it was a pitch mismatch. Sorry for the confusion.

Rick,

I distinctly felt one of my lower appendages being tugged on.

[Duffy]

Well, the fastest of the fast, has chimed in and throws a knuckle sinker in the bottom of the ninth.....

Awwww, thank you! but I must decline the flattery, there are guys measurably faster than I.

[MSwiss]

Greg,

There was also someone who tried the JK 64 pitch (green 31t?) pitch crown gear without luck.

[Ron Hershman]

That is an interesting statement: "What's most important is finding the right pinion that's not too hard nor too soft... the hardness varies batch to batch."

Could you explain how the pinion hardness plays into this all and how do you measure it?

Well you want the metal pinion to last longer than the plastic crown I have never measured a pinion's "Rockwell" but can tell by looking at one pinion over the other and from the same MFG.... some are softer than others.

I am pretty sure the pinions we are using are made from stainless steel and not steel like Fass and Sonic used and uses for so many years now. Maybe if they "hardened" the stainless they would last longer?

There could also be some differences between the plastic they use for the gears as well.

But I see more wear on pinions than crowns of late.

[MSwiss]

What's most important is finding the right pinion that's not too hard nor too soft... the hardness varies batch to batch.

Ron,

That's pretty interesting.

I've never heard of that before and never noticed anything, but I don't personally race nearly
as much as you.

I just hope I don't start having guys trying to order pinions from the magic batch. LOL.

[Duffy]

I just hope I don't start having guys trying to order pinions from the magic batch. LOL.

That "Parking Lot" is gonna get looking more & more like a swap meet all the time, innit?

[Ramcatlarry]

No one mentioned F1 or wider Can-Am as a variable. With F1, the cars are much lighter in overall mass and you may need to add some. A non-hypoid allows you to add a strip of brass under the motor and offsets the 'higher CG' issue. It also alters the aero aspects of the bottom of the car and reduces some of the lift that can happen with hollow-centered cars.

Anyone recall the 1990s 1/32 F1 British hardened gears? Had to lube them with tire traction to finish a forty minute race without burning out the pinion.

[Hworth08]

Is it not true that steel pinions are EDM cut and not molded? If they are cut I can see a lot of area for variance. Of course, the same is true if they are molded.

[Cheater]

I'm pretty sure angled pinions are actually machined or ground. I suspect that the cheaper straight steel pinions are broached.

Phil Hackett, you ought to be the guy posting about this...

[Ron Hershman]

Three ways pinions are made that I know of...

1. Extruded from soft steel and brass. Piano wire pulled through a die and cut to length. Cheap but not consistent.

2. Machined or "hobbed"... usually harder steel is used.... Fass and Sonic used/uses this method. Depending on the steel used, some could be hardened after the machining/hobbing process. Google "hobbing" and you can see examples of this method which is commonly used for making pinions for slot and R/C racing.

3. EDM cut... very precision and expensive. Any hardness can be EDM cut.

[Cheater]

Hobbing is the term I really meant, not broaching, though these are very similar processes.

[MantaRay]

Cheater just wanted to "hob nob", or is it "hob knob"... my emoticons are not working.

[Cheater]

... my emoticons are not working.

In this instance, I'm not bothered by that one bit! LOL!