106 replies to this topic

[Hangtime]

I see both sides of the discussion here. I think the com size issue is different than the timing. In my mind, the relation of the brushes to magnets is advance or retarding the timing. Interesting discussion though.

[Phil Smith]

'James Wendel', on 30 Nov 2011 - 08:47 AM, said:

Phil - I think that your illustration clearly shows to anyone willing to look, with an open mind, that the net effect of reducing the com diameter and removing the trailing edge of the brushes is the same as rotating the endbell.

And that, as Mike stated in his post #64, advances the timing.

I'm sure that Eric Clapton would agree.

James, thanks. With so few posters agreeing with me, I was starting to have doubts myself. But I just can't find anything wrong with my argument.

Arguing against Koford, Swiss and Hersman, who are legends in the hobby, doesn't help either. Heck, if I had to pick who to listen to between me and them, I'd pick them too.

My drawings aren't the easiest to understand either. Different colored lines would have helped, but I couldn't figure out how to do that.

[MantaRay]

Phil, Don't forget about Stu Koford's opinion..........I think he has some credentials also............




Wade 500
1'st 1/24 Eurosport: Beuf- M283E-300S set up with M651M 20t-25 arm, and M639 2mm axle.
TQ & 1'st OMO: Beuf - M414N Beuf Express chassis, 18mag K blank 84 motor, M515 pinion, M539-39 Red Dot spur, and M472BWH tires.
TQ & 1'st G27L: Beuf - M610B Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, M561-44 72p spur & M472BWH tires.
TQ & 1'st Box 12: Chris Everett - Complete Koford motor, 9-39 gears & M472BWH tires.
ISRA WORLD'S
1'st F1 Eurosport: Paolo Trigilio using Koford M255EH .235 stack length ultrashort H blank eurosport arm
2'nd F1 Eurosport: Gugu using Koford H blank Eurosport arm
BP500
Buena Park Raceway 10/1/11 - 10/2/11
1'st Pro G7: Forrest Watcher - Team Koford, M531D chassis, 84-1/2 arms, 24 mag Koford set ups, M214I Peugeot, M469 guide, Koford guide nut, axle M541-39 Red dot spur
1'st G27 light: James Grinstead - Team Koford
2011 Brock Trophy Race
Mobile Raceway Dandenong Australia 9/30/11 - 10/2/11
1'st G7: Beuf - Team Koford - M531D Beuf Express chassis, Koford horsepower, M535I Peugeot, M541-39 Red spur, M515 pinned pinion, M156F axle
TQ G7 (new Australian record): Beuf - 1.4868 with Koford 10 mag 84-1/2 horsepower
2'nd G7: Cody Bramble - M414Z Beuf Express Chassis, Koford arms and Peugeot body
3'rd G7: John Favorito - M414Z Beuf Express Chassis, Koford motors, gears, and Peugeot body
1'st OMO: Cody Bramble - Beuf Express chassis and Koford arm
2'nd OMO:Beuf - M531D Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, gears and Peugeot body
3'rd OMO: Wayne Bramble - Beuf Express chassis and Koford arm
TQ OMO: Shalin Perera - Koford 22 magnet motor
1'st G27: Wayne Bramble - Koford arm and Beuf Express M414Z chassis
TQ NTR and 2'nd G27: Beuf - Beuf Express M414X chassis, motors, gears, and tires
3'rd G27: Charles Rickards - Complete Koford car
1'st and TQ (NTR) G15: Cody Bramble - Beuf Express chassis, G7-WX tires, and Koford motors
2'nd G15: Michael Thorby - Beuf Express chassis and complete motor
1'st Gp12: Adrian Bycroft - Koford arm
TQ Gp12: Russell Gale - Koford arm
2011 Nat's
Chicks Hobbiz Ashland VA
1'st Pro G7: Beuf - Team Koford-National Championship number 8!! Koford M531D Beuf Express chassis (3'rd race), Koford can, endbell, magnets, arm, M541-39 Red dot gear and M515 pinned pinion, Peugeot body, motor brushes, axle, rims
2'nd Pro G7: Chase Walker - Team Koford. M531D Beuf Express chassis, Koford horsepower, M541-39 Red Dot 39t spur, M515 pinned pinions, Peugeot body and motor brushes
TQ Pro G7:Bill Skinner - M531D Beuf Express chassis, Koford horsepower, motor brushes, and Peugeot body
1'st Sr Open: Richard Curnutte - Team Koford, G7WX+ and G7WXX tires, M414Z chassis, Koford horsepower, M541-39 Red dot spur, M515 pinned pinions, Peugeot body, and motor brushes
1'st OMO:Chubby - Team Koford. M531D chassis, motor, Peugeot body, Red Dot 39 and pinned pinion, axle
1'st Pro G27: Richard Curnutte - Team Koford, G7WXX tires (top three finishers ran Koford tires), M414X chassis, 14 and 16 mag motors, .
TQ Pro G27: Reggie Coram - M472FSX qualifying tires, Koford 6 mag motor,
1'st Am G27: Mike Meagher - M472G7WXX tires, 414X chassis, Koford can and endbell, .495 36° arm, brushes, M313 springsTesla with rib body, Red Dot spur, and Black Diamond pinion, axle, M617 guide, lead wires
1'st G27L: Petr Krcil - Koford arm
1'st Pro Gp15: Scott Smith - Koford Beuf Express Wedge chassis (top three finishers), G7WXX tires (top three finishers), Koford horsepower (top three finishers)
1'st Am Gp12: David Weakley - Koford Beuf Express Chassis, Koford arms, gears, M607 magnets, Koford can and endbell on 1 of 2 motors in main.
1'st Pro Gp12: Jeff Sarkisian - Koford motors
2011 Worlds Pilsen
1'st Pro G7: Josef Korec - Beuf Express M531D, Koford arms
2'nd Pro G7: Peter Frobel - Koford arms
TQ 1.418 and 3'rd G7: Mario Schone - TQ Koford can, 8 mags, 75 490 arm Koford 11:43 gears, Peugeot body, axle, brushes, guide, race: 39T Red Dot gear, Koford can and endbells, 490 84.5 arms.
1'st OMO: Mikael Silen - Koford arms, can, M535I Peugeot, axle, bearings, brushes, gears.
2'nd OMO: Forrest Watchers - Complete Koford car.
2011 Australian Nat's
1'st G15: Cody Bramble - Beuf Express chassis, Koford arm, Tesla with rib body
1'st Gp12: Russel Gayle - Beuf Express M530B chassis, Koford arm
1'st G7: Wayne Bramble - Koford arm M414Z Beuf Express Chassis
2011 Western States Championship
Buena Park Raceway
24th Eurosport:
1st- James Grinstead with koford 19t-24.5 motor
2nd- Adam Shaw with Koford 23t-25 arm
3rd- Richard Curnutte with complete koford motor
Team Koford sweeps the Pro Group 7 race.
1st and new lap record 1219 laps- Forrest Watchers M531D, M214I Peugeot, 84.5 horsepower, M543 angled pinion, M541-39 Red dot spur, cut down guide, M472BWX+ tires, M156F axle.
2nd- Richard Curnutte with 414Z, koford horsepower, Koford gears,
koford tires, and peugot body
3rd- James Grinstead with 414Z, peugot body, koford gears, koford tires, and koford horsepower
Group 27 Lite
1st- Richard Curnutte with koford chassis, koford gears, koford tires and koford horsepower
2nd- Gil Gunderson with koford chassis and koford arms
3rd- James Grinstead with Koford chassis, koford tires, and Koford horsepower
Cobalt Classic
Chick's Hobbiz, the 2011 Nat's track
1'st 27 lite Vince Brown 831 New Track Record
1'st G27 Marty Meltabarger 862
1'st OMO Marty 934 New Track Record
World Record
CS Nats in Pilsen
1'st G7, new world record 1317 laps, 168 lap heat - Mario Schone - M472G7-WXX tires, Koford sets ups built by Beuf (2-20 mag, 1-26 mag), Koford M620-84.5 (490 84.5 arms), M244 motor brushes, M541-39 Red dot gears, M156F axles, Peugeot body

1'st OMO WR 1044 laps - Ulli Pietsch, M472G7-WXX tires, Koford 84.5 arm, Koford M541-39 gear, M244 brushes, Peugeot body, M156F axle.
Santa Shoot Out Results
Chick's raceway, site of the 2011 Nat's
1'st C-12 Vince Brown - M414X chassis, Koford Horsepower, G7WXX tires, Koford Gears and Motor Brushes
1'st G15 Vince Brown - M531F chassic, Koford Horsepower, G7WXX tires, Koford Gears and Motor Brushes
1'st G27 lite Marty Meltabarger - M610B chassic, Koford Horsepower, .490 dia. 32', Koford Gears and Motor Brushes, G7WX tires

1'st G27 (new track record) Marty Meltabarger - M414X chassic, Koford Horsepower, Koford Gears and Motor Brushes, G7WXX tires

1'st OMO (new track record) Vince Brown - M531D chassic, Koford Horse, Koford Gears and Motor Brushes,
G7WX - G7WXX tires, Peugeot Body

1'st Open (new track record) Mart Meltabarger - M531D chassic, Koford Horsepower, Koford Gears and Motor Brushes, G7WX - G7WXX tires, Peugeot Body
Bola Bash
Buena Park Raceway, Buena Park California
1'st Pro G7: Beuf - Koford horsepower, M531 D chassis, Peugeot body etc.,
2'nd Pro G7 James Grinstead - M414Z chassis, Koford 20 and 22 mag motors with 84.5 arms, M472B-WX+ tires, Peugeot body, gears and axles
Top race lap and 2'nd 1/24 Euro: Beuf - Koford horsepower
3'rd 1/24 Euro: James Grinstead with Koford 23t-25 arm

Brazilian Nat's 2010
1'st and TQ G7: Beuf - (TQ Koford 10 mag set up and 11-42 72 pitch gears), M531D chassis, Koford horsepower Koford Red dot spur and M515 pinned pinion, Koford rims
1'st OMO: Ulli Pietsch - M531D Beuf Express chassis, G7WXX tires, M541-39 Red Dot gears, Koford K blank arm
1'st Pro G27: Beuf Koford M472G7-WXX and M472G7-WX+ tires, Koford 495 36° horsepower, M414X chassis, Tesla with rib body.
1'st G27 Light: Beuf Koford horsepower, Beuf Express chassis G7WXX tires,
Wade Raceway 500
TQ GTP - Dustyn Wade w/ Koford ultra feather can & Koford motor brushes

1st GTP - Vance "Odie" Oathout w/ Koford ultra feather can & Koford motor brushes

TQ & 2nd GT12 - Beuf w/Koford arm, magnets, endbell, axle & Koford motor brushes

1st G12 - Kenny Richins w/M530B Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, M472BWH tires & Koford motor brushes

2nd G12 - Chris Everett w/ M530B Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, 9/39 gears, M472BWH tires & motor brushes

TQ & 3rd - Jim Ward w/ M530 B Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, 9/39 gears, M472BWH tires & motor brushes

1st 27L - Bob Everett w/M610B Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, 9/38 gears, M472BWH tires & motor brushes

2nd 27L - Beuf w/ M610B Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, 9/38 gears, Tesla w/rib body, tires & motor brushes

TQ & 3rd - 27L Chris Everett w/Koford motor, 9/38 gears & M472BWH tires & motor brushes

1st OMO - Beuf w/ M531D Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, 8/39 gears, Peugeot body, tires & motor brushes

2nd OMO - Chris Everett w/ Beuf Express chassis, Koford 10M motor, 8/39 gears, tires & motor brushes

TQ & 3rd OMO - Jim Ward w/ Beuf Express chassis, 8/39 gears, tires & motor brushes
TQ & 1st 1/24 Eurosport - Beuf w/ Complete Koford TO 330 single mag 85 motor
ISRA Worlds
Mid America Raceway
TQ and 2'nd F1 Eurosport - Greg Gilbert - .480 .240 stack K blank arm and Koford Euro can.
BP500
2010 BP 500 at Buena Park Raceway
1'st Pro G7: Forrest Watchers - M472B-WX tires, Beuf Express M531D chassis, Koford 84.5 arms, Peugeot body, Koford set ups, gears, motor brushes, axle etc.
1'st OMO: Richard Curnutte - M472B-WX tires, Beuf Express M531D chassis, Koford horsepower and Peugeot body.
1'st Semi Pro G7: Jimmy Lee - M472B-WX tires, Beuf Express M531D chassis, Koford 84.5 arms, Peugeot body, Koford set ups, gears, motor brushes, axle etc.
2010 Nat's
Slot Cars of Dallas
1'st Am Box: Lil Brian - Beuf Express M530B, Koford set up, M604 500 long magnets, arm, M472P-WX tires, M156F axle, M485 brushes.
2nd Am Box: Timothy Skurka - M530B Beuf Express chassis & Koford horsepower, and motor brushes

3rd Am Box: Christopher Doucer - M530B Beuf Express chassis & Koford horsepower and motor brushes
TQ Am Box: Archie King - M530D Beuf Express chassis & Koford horsepower with Koford motor brushes
1'st Pro Box: Rob Garland - M472G-WX tires, M528 can, M607 .450 long magnets, M514 endbell, M485 brushes, M468-Box-40 arm, M156F axle, M530D chassis, M615 guidenut
1'st Am G15: Rob Garland - M472G-WXX tires, M531F chassis, M156F axle, M302 guidenut, Front tires M234I, Magnets M601, M467-15C arm, M485 brushes.
2nd Am I-15 Timothy Skurka w/ Koford horsepower and motor brushes
TQ Am I-15 Matt Skurka w/Koford arm, motor brushes & M472SX Q tires
1'st & TQ Pro G15: Richard Curnutte - M531F Beuf Express chassis, G7WXX tires and 2- complete Koford single mag motors with Koford motor brushes
2nd Pro I-15 Doug Bauer w/ M531F Beuf Express chassis & Koford horsepower w. Koford motor brushes

3rd Pro I-15 Larry Langdon w/ M531 Beuf Express chassis & Koford horsepower w/ Koford motor brushes
1st Am C12 Bill Frost w/ M414X Beuf Express chassis & 1- complete Koford 6 mag motor w Koford motor brushes for 8 heats
2nd Am C12: Paul Peterson - koford 6 mag motors, tires, gears, 414X chassis, and unribbed Tesla body.
TQ Am C12 Ben Martinez w/ Complete Koford Quad Motor w Koford motor brushes
1st Pro C12 Terry Kunz w/ Koford arms, and motor brushes

2nd Pro C12 Beuf w/ M414X Beuf Express chassis, 6 mag motors, Koford motor brushes & G7WXX tires

3rd Pro C12 John Batson w/ Koford arms, motor brushes & axles
TQ Pro C12 Reggie Coram w/ M414X Beuf Express chassis, 6 mag motor, Koford motor brushes & M472SX Q tires
1st G27L Beuf w/ M610B Beuf Express chassis, G7WXX tires, Koford horsepower, Koford motor brushes, 72P gears & Tesla w/rib body

2nd G27L Doug Bauer w/ M610b Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor brushes & Koford horsepower

3rd G27L Luca Bernadino w/ Koford arms and Koford motor brushes
TQ G27L Filipe DeSilva w/ G7WXX tires & Koford arm and motor brushes
TQ & 1st Am G27 Luca Bernadino w/ Koford arms and motor brushes
1st Pro G27 Rich Curnutte w/ M414X Beuf Express chassis, 6M motors, motor brushes, gears & G7WXX tires

2nd Pro G27 Filipe DeSilva w/M414X Beuf Express chassis, Koford arms, motor brushes & G7WXX tires

3rd Pro G27 Peter Krcil w/ M414X Beuf Express chassis, motor brushes & Koford arms
TQ Pro G27 Bill Skinner w/ M414X Beuf Express chassis, motor brushes & Koford 6M motor
TQ & 1st G7 warm up P.A. Watson w/ M414Z Beuf Express chassis, Peugeot body, motor brushes & Koford arms
1st Senior Open Rich Curnutte w/ M414Z Beuf Express chassis, 2-18T24 24m motors, motor brushes, gears & Peugeot body
TQ Senior Open Gary Puetz w/ Koford motor, motor brushes & Peugeot body
1'st OMO: Chubbie - Beuf Express M531D chassis, Koford can , endbell, magnets, motor brushes, Koford K blank 64.5 .485 arm, Peugeot body, M541-39 spur and 8t Black Diamond pinned pinion
2nd OMO Filipe DeSilva w/ Beuf Express chassis, motor brushes & Koford arm

3rd OMO Derek Velez w/ M414Z Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor, Koford motor brushes, gears & Peugeot body
TQ OMO Peter Krcil w/ M414X Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor brushes
1'st & TQ Semi Pro: Zac Grinstead - Beuf Express M531D chassis, M535I Peugeot body, Koford gears and Koford 20 mag motors with Koford arms and motor brushes
1'st & TQ G7 Pro - Beuf, M531D Beuf Express chassis, Koford motors, Koford motor brushes, gears & Peugeot body, TQ motor 84.5 .480 K blank in 10 mag,

2nd Pro G7 Peter Krcil w/ M414Z Beuf Express chassis, Koford motor brushes & Peugeot body

3rd Pro G7 Chase Walker w/ M414Z Beuf express chassis, Koford motors, Koford motor brushes, gears & Peugeot body

[Phil Smith]

I fixed that omission, Ray.

[Phil Irvin]

'Dallas Racer', on 30 Nov 2011 - 04:42 AM, said:

Mike, I don't think you're understanding my post, because that's not what I said. I get that the poles are indeed on all the time, and not switching on and off. But they are switching polarity. If they didn't do that, the motor wouldn't even run. And changing the timing doesn't change that. The poles are still on all the time.

Maybe I'm dense or maybe you're not the best at explaining this. Or...maybe I'm right. Regardless, thank you for your responses.

The two PHILs are still thinking along the same line. We are NOT disputing the firing line on the arm. That will not change no matter how big or small the comm is. It is the position of the brush ON the comm that changes when the comm is smaller and the brush wraps around it further or the hoods are turned or the forward edge of the brush cocked to that side. Making the brush wear funny and the brush first hitting, fireing & changing the polerity, the next comm segment sooner.

OLPHRT
PHIL I.

[Phil Smith]

Phil and James, at least one other forum member agrees with us. He doesn't want to be involved in this debate, but he did send me an excellent, much improved drawing, along with an explanation. This drawing is to scale and the comm reduction and angles are real world numbers. The colors also make it much easier to understand:

In case you can't figure my drawing out. the green is the brush that's .125" high. I measured a pair and they were .123" so I rounded up. I drew a .200" and .190" com dia or about what the average com gets turned down to. Personally, I've never went smaller than .185" before I figured it was a grenade and replaced the arm.

Anyway the 2 degrees or probably more like 2.5 is the difference where the com will intersect the brush between the two sizes. When I reduced the com to .180" I had a 5 degree difference.

[NSwanberg]

"In case you can't figure my drawing out. the green is the brush that's .125" high."

Don't you mean .125" wide?

[Hangtime]

It could be 2 deg or 4 deg. As long as its both sides of the brush it cancels it out. no timing change.

[Bill from NH]

I wonder how many endbells Leon has cranked since Nov 22nd.

[Zeekester]

Put your motor on a power supply and twist the can. You will find that timing is advanced by moving the endbell counterclockwise. Fixed cans show this also,with the endbell hardware aligned in a counterclockwise slant.

[Phil Smith]

My apologies for dragging this up again, but I received a couple of very interesting PMs:

I also have used CNC computer software to illustrate the differences in comm dia vs. brush width to determine the difference in timing that a smaller commutator has.

Using a .200 dia. commutator, if we use a .125 wide brush (horizontal) and compare it to a .108 brush (Vertical), the difference in timing is 6 degrees. A decrease in the comm dia to .185 will change the timing by just under 3.5 degrees.

Now for the good stuff. A .200 dia comm with a .108 wide brush has no overlap, or short. For every .005 reduction in comm diameter, reducing the brush width .003 maintains that relationship. The leading edge, trailing edge, and duration remain the same. A .195 comm/.105 brush, .190/.103, .185/.100.

I use a fixture to hold the brushes and narrow them from .125 to .108 since the hoods are for horizontal brushes, and advance the timing I use 6 degrees. I get a cooler running motor that is just as fast and usually faster, without the burnt comm.

I took a brush and cut .030 off the leading edge to see what would happen. You guessed it. Put it on the power supply and it was a DOG. There is no way that it didnt reduce the timing.

I also figured up that using a .125 brush with a .200 comm has 69.84 degrees of overlap, or dead short, which is why I decided to go with the narrower brush and advanced timing to begin with. A .125 brush with a .185 comm has 112.92 degrees of overlap! Almost 1/3rd of the motors rotation is spent in a dead short! It doesnt take a genius to figure out that isnt worth a damn.

Another PM:

To expand on my point, and someone else in the thread may have said it already, maybe even you, is that cutting the comm doesnt advance the timing. By the letter of the law, they are right. It doesnt change the location of the comm segment, or the magnet leading edge, or the position of the brushes. We all get that. However, by using the same brush width, the swept area or duration, and the leading and trailing edges and at which point they energize the stack with the correct polarity to make motion does change, in effect increasing the timing just the same as if the hoods had been moved.

This is interesting:

I dont know if you run any of those Hawk motors, but everyone is complaining about how they are always burning up. The comm is .170 in diameter! You only need a brush that is .091 in width at the most! No wonder they burn up.

[Arne Saknussem]

'Dallas Racer', on 23 Dec 2011 - 8:22 PM, said:

I dont know if you run any of those Hawk motors, but everyone is complaining about how they are always burning up. The comm is .170 in diameter! You only need a brush that is .091 in width at the most! No wonder they burn up.

Mike Swiss addressed this very point in a post/thread about the Hawk 6 when it first became available.

[Ron Hershman]

Phil,

Which Hawk motor???? Hawk 7, Hawk or Hawk 6 is being referenced in the PM to you???

[Phil Smith]

Pete,

Thanks. I missed that thread.

Ron,

I don't know. I there a comm and brush difference between them?

[MSwiss]

Phil S,
It's as if, no matter how many times I post the below (in Red) from Stu K, you refuse to read it or try to comprehend it.

We get that a dia. change in comm or height/width change in brush effects when the edge of the brush touches the edge
of comm, but THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE TIMING, IT JUST EFFECTS THE AMOUNT OF TIME THE BRUSH SHORTS
THE COMM SEGMENTS.

That can effect how the motor runs but it is NOT changing the timing.

If you want to invent your own lingo and call that "changing the timing", feel free to, but last time I checked, the US Military decided
that Stu was the guy to go for motors to power the remote control tracked vehicles that they use to remove undetonated bombs.

Call me kookie but I'm pretty sure that makes him more of an authority on electric motors than yourself, who had to go dig out an armature and study it to understand that all 3 coils were a continuous pc. of wire.


To change the motor timing you would need to rotate the brush hoods relative to the magnets.

Some racers have the misunderstanding that the point when the edge of the brush touches the edge of the segment is when the coil "turns on" so a change of brush dimension changes timing. Actually there is always current flowing in all three coils and so they are always "on". A wider brush or a smaller comm just effect the amount of time that the brush shorts the comm segments.

Regards,
Stuart

[NSwanberg]

One of the things you have to consider in this timing issue is what is happening with the other brush. Try and give us a drawing that includes both brushes with three the slots indicated in the commutator and I think the issue will clear itself up. The purpose of commutation is to reverse the current flow through the coil as it moves to the opposite magnet so that two of the three poles are always pulling the armature in the same direction of rotation. We all understand that a motor is created when a current flows perpendicular to a north south magnet field. What limits the rpm of such permanent magnet motors is the back emf (electro motive force) that is created as the armature rotates for it is still acting as a generator.

Most rotating engines or motors will create more horsepower the faster they turn. As the armature turns the magnetic field is dragged in the direction of rotation by the armature. The phenomenon is more pronounced in ceramic magnet motors whereas the rare earth magnets keep the magnetic field in place which is why higher timing seems to benefit the ceramic magnet motors more.

Now if someone will just explain to me how a pancake HO motor can work??? As the poles become shorter I believe the motor must become more of a magnet chasing a magnet than current flowing perpendicular through a magnetic field. The part of an HO armature that does the work is only two laminations long???

[Ron Hershman]

'NSwanberg', on 24 Dec 2011 - 1:31 PM, said:

The phenomenon is more pronounced in ceramic magnet motors whereas the rare earth magnets keep the magnetic field in place which is why higher timing seems to benefit the ceramic magnet motors more.

This is more due to magnet "height" than type of mag material..... taller magnets allow for more timing to be used and with shorter height magnets...less timing is better.

It all has to do when the arm/coil fires in relation to the magnets/magnet tips.

[Ron Hershman]

'Dallas Racer', on 24 Dec 2011 - 04:13 AM, said:

I don't know. I there a comm and brush difference between them?

Yes there is a brush "dimension" difference between a Hawk 7 motor and the Hawk and Hawk 6 motors.

[Ron Hershman]

'MSwiss', on 24 Dec 2011 - 05:22 AM, said:

If you want to invent your own lingo and call that "changing the timing", feel free to, but last time I checked, the US Military decided
that Stu was the guy to go for motors to power the remote control tracked vehicles that they use to remove undetonated bombs.

Are those motors 3-coil/pole arms??? How big are the comm and brushes in those motors Mike???

[MSwiss]

Of course they are brushless. The point was Stu knows his way around an electric motor. His expertise with 3 pole motors is already legendary.

[Pablo]

For my retirement plans, I was thinking of souping up Hoverounds. Lighter, faster, better mags, and higher timing
With GPS, autopilot, sat phone, laptop, built in slot controller, and universal remote control.

[Ron Hershman]

'MSwiss', on 24 Dec 2011 - 6:53 PM, said:

Of course they are brushless. The point was Stu knows his way around an electric motor. His expertise with 3 pole motors is already legendary.

Yep Stu knows his way around an electric motor and his products are legendary...but what did Stu do or figure out that guys like Steube, Green, Mc Curdy, Montague, etc had already figured out years before before Stu got started in slot racing?

[Pablo]

Hey Ron, you DO know it's Christmas Eve, don't you ? Not a good time to bicker.
Thanks (not) for the technical advice on my Hoveround plan Just kidding.
Seriously, let's not talk about motor theory tonight. Wait until next week, then
resume the fight.

[Ron Hershman]

No one bickering here Pablo.....just asking questions

Just another Saturday night here......LOL

[NSwanberg]

'Actually there is always current flowing in all three coils and so they are always "on". '

This is not accurate. For the current to reverse in a pole the current has to come to zero for an instant at some point during its rotation.