![Photo](http://slotblog.net/uploads/profile/photo-thumb-29.jpeg?_r=1641455377)
AAR LMP Delta Wing project progress
#26
Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:27 PM
I know I don't know much about real race cars but I'm just having a hard time believing the AAR will ever handle like a good race car with the 4 tires in a "square" pattern.
Back to slot cars which I do know how they behave.
Take both of the fronts tires off of your Retro F1 car and see how it handles. Even with the guide in the middle completing the "tripod", I doubt you would be able to punch the bank at BP.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#27
Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:39 PM
![:)](http://slotblog.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png)
If wing cars can do with no front wheels because of the enormous downforce towards the back of the car, why not the Delta-Wing that at least in the tunnel, generates twice its weight at a simulated 150 MPH through its underbody?
Philippe de Lespinay
#28
Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:46 PM
Strictly my uninformed opinion, of course.
I am not a doctor, but I played one as a child with the girl next door.
#29
Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:54 PM
Wide slot cars that don't use front tires are still wide in the front and will ride on either the corners of the chassis and/or the body.
I'm pretty sure the ratio of downforce vs car weight for a wing car is in another stratosphere vs a real race car.
When I tried to build a G7 slot car with ground effects tunnels back in about 1982, Stu Koford laughed at me and explained how the shape of the body combined with the huge side dams and spoiler was going to trump any kind of F1 style reverse airfoil mojo I could construct under the car.
That all said, while the AAR isn't going to make anybody forget the Ferrari P4 in the looks dept, I hope it works. LOL.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#30
Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:58 PM
Locking propensity of the un-laden front wheel at corner entry is greatly reduced due to virtually no front lateral load transfer with the narrow track and wide rear track layout, steered wheel “scrub drag” moment is virtually zero greatly increasing tire utilization and reducing mid turn understeer.
And...
Unique amongst today’s racing cars more than 50% of the vehicles braking force is generated behind the center of gravity giving a dynamically-stable response.
Modern racing cars are steered not only by action on the steering wheel, but by lightly braking while on full throttle, causing an increase in front wheel downforce and thus increasing traction. The Delta Wing may not need it because it is inherently stable under steering.
Philippe de Lespinay
#31
Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:11 PM
I'm pretty sure the ratio of downforce vs car weight for a wing car is in another stratosphere vs a real race car.
Indeed because of the enormous appendages generating the downforce in relation to the car's size. I do not know if anyone ever measured the downforce of a G7 wing car, but one can guestimate it at over five times its weight at top speed.
But a modern full-size racing car can generate three times its weight and the Reynolds scale applies in reverse, meaning that it's a LOT! However there is no doubt that the G-forces generated by a wing car while cornering are several times greater than that of full-size racers. Maybe as high as G8 or 9.
When I tried to build a G7 slot car with ground effects tunnels back in about 1982, Stu Koford laughed at me and explained how the shape of the body combined with the huge side dams and spoiler was going to trump any kind of F1 style reverse airfoil mojo I could construct under the car.
I smile because I think some of us tried this at one time or the other (my first in 1971...) but it of course CANNOT work because we cannot reduce the size of air molecules to 1/24 scale! Indeed the side dams and spoiler that make the cars virtual aerodynamic shovels are so much more efficient...
That all said, while the AAR isn't going to make anybody forget the Ferrari P4 in the looks dept, I hope it works. LOL.
I was so lucky to be there at LeMans in 1966 and 1967, and got to see these gorgeous machines at a time when anyone could go behind the old pits before the race and touch the cars if desired... Unfortunately, aerodynamics and logic took over artistry, and there is little we can do. But indeed, I applaude and encourage this British-American effort, because it is simply ingenious. I am pretty confident that cornering speed will be the least of their problems. Once the car's concept is well understood, where the mass is, where the downforce is generated, I am sure that most naysayers will be dumbfounded.
![:)](http://slotblog.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png)
Everyone mocked Owen Greenwood in 1966 when he showed up in sidecar races in the UK with a Mini chassis with a rough aluminum covering serving as blody, a chassis from which he had grouped the two rear wheels together to make it a front-wheel driven, three-wheel, two seater machine that quickly began to win and win until banned because "it was not an accepted sidecar design". Think Delta Wing in reverse gear... of course there was no downforce then since only a few on the planet had any idea of using it to corner faster.
Philippe de Lespinay
#32
Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:27 PM
The new one looks like the old but is not cheap and is strictly for fun, and a rocket on wheels.
SEE HERE.
Another example of a car that is reversed-engineered from this new race car.
![;)](http://slotblog.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.png)
I guess, best is wait and see...
If wing cars can do with no front wheels because of the enormous downforce towards the back of the car, why not the Delta-Wing that at least in the tunnel, generates twice its weight at a simulated 150 MPH through its underbody?
What happens when it gets too close to the car in front of it... will it look like Don Garlits famous "blow over" years ago or similar to the "blow over" Mercedes CLRs at LeMans??? Those Mercedes had four wheels and tremendous downforce through and under its body work... only to blow over once it got too close to the car in front of it.
Yep, wait and see... on the track and then in traffic.
The Delta Wing may not need it because it is inherently stable under steering.
May not need it??? Has this car been on a track yet at full speed? Time will tell
#33
Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:32 PM
Philippe de Lespinay
#34
Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:33 PM
of course there was no down force then since only a few on the planet had any idea of using it to corner faster.
Except for Smokey Yunick at Indy in 1962...
Driver Jim Rathmann and Crew Chief Smokey Yunick renewed their association at the 1962 Indy 500 for the third consecutive year. Rathmann's first qualifying attempt on the second day of qualifying, Sunday, May 13, was too slow, and the crew waved him off. On Wed. the 16th, Rathmann took to the track with an inverted wing mounted to his car. Crew member Bruce Crower prepared a wing in an effort to increase downforce and speed. This was the first wing ever seen at the Speedway, and one of the first on any racing car. They were subjected to the jibes of other drivers and crew about the "sunshade." In practice, the wing enabled Rathmann to be clocked in the corners at 146 MPH, at the time the fastest cornering speed ever at the Brickyard.
And if they hadn't done this...
The following year, the USAC prohibited wings, and despite aerodynamic experiments in other forms of racing, the ban at the Speedway would not be lifted until 1972.
One has to wonder what they would have come up with from 1963 and on.
![;)](http://slotblog.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.png)
#35
Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:04 PM
![:)](http://slotblog.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png)
Philippe de Lespinay
#36
Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:40 AM
How is it going to handle well with such a narrow front track?
That's exactly what I thought.
I like the whole efficiency thing but how is that thing going to turn?
I looks like a Bonneville car instead of a road racer.
I guess they could make the front end really soft to get the weight to transfer.
#37
Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:01 AM
I used to see him drive it daily to work when his shop was in Palatine.
#38
Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:52 PM
I like the whole efficiency thing but how is that thing going to turn?
By loading the rear wheels with weight distribution, the front end becomes quite light. Just enough downforce there, balanced by adjustment of the tunnels under the car, and it will have absolutely no problem turning. This is how "sidecar" outfits such as the Swiss Seymaz, multiple world champion, resolved the issue. And if you had the chance to ever see one of these machines on track, you would not even ask the question.
The real question in fact is, will the POTENTIAL loss in cornering speed and braking (and it remains to be proven that there will be such losses) be balanced by superior straight-line speed (which you really NEED at Le Mans) through extremely light weight and mild down force in relation to much heavier cars?
Sophisticated computer projections say yes, but of course, only track testing will show, but I would be ready to bet that after testing, small winglets will be added to the body, thus reducing the extremely low drag coefficient compared to conventional cars.
Ben Bowlby, who designed some seriously good racing cars in his career so far, has deflected his (many) critics on the Delta Wing project, by simply smiling and not really responding. Hence, the question is in the air, but as a seat-of-the-pants engineer and with what I have seen over 55 years or motor racing, I see no real reason why this should not work fine after a bit of tinkering.
Philippe de Lespinay
#39
Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:59 PM
Anthony 'Tonyp' Przybylowicz
5/28/50-12/20/21
Requiescat in Pace
#40
Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:06 PM
Not yet. However, in this modern world of CFD (computer fluid dynamics), the engineers can predict 99% of the car's behavior, and they are rarely wrong. For example, while they used to spend tons of money in the wind tunnel on expensive models, modern F1 cars are almost completely done on CFD (and so are most road cars today) with a very high level of predictability. The same is done in aircraft design, like for the Boeing 787, Airbus A380 or the F22. Hence tunnels are becoming a thing of the past quite rapidly, only used to confirm CFD findings...
Philippe de Lespinay
#41
Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:27 PM
Anthony 'Tonyp' Przybylowicz
5/28/50-12/20/21
Requiescat in Pace
#42
Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:27 PM
![:laugh2:](http://slotblog.net/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh2.gif)
![:dash2:](http://slotblog.net/public/style_emoticons/default/dash2.gif)
#43
Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:38 PM
You have to get a good design to begin with of course, but think of it this way: the difference between the best car in F1 and the worst is less than 3% of lap time... so wrong it is, sure, but a decent engineer will begin with a better idea, and this what makes Newey the Man and Nick Wirth is simply not of the Adrian Newey caliber.CFD can be terribly wrong like the Virgin
Now is Ben Bowlby of any caliber? He sure was so far with his Indy car designs, the G-Force was a great car, simply there was not enough money faced with Dallara and their deeper pockets.
Philippe de Lespinay
#44
Posted 01 February 2012 - 05:35 PM
It is just ugly.
Amen...
LM
#45
Posted 01 February 2012 - 08:53 PM
![DeltaWing.jpg](http://slotblog.net/uploads/monthly_02_2012/post-1540-0-59627800-1328147353.jpg)
...And I kinda like the nod&wink from AAR to their dubious friends in this Christmas card.
I dunno how I feel about this. It may not be as ugly to me as the current LMP fashion, all lumps and bubbles--but I haven't liked anything I've seen at Le Mans since '75 or so. If I want to look at pretty cars, I just put on the Steve McQueen movie and get my fill. Until that Matra goes by.
Duffy
1950-2016
Requiescat in Pace
And I am awaiting
perpetually and forever
a renaissance of wonder
#46
Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:22 PM
![Posted Image](http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/12/01-r18-630.jpg)
Want some more? How about this marvel of beauty:
![Posted Image](http://larre.smugmug.com/Sprint-Cars/World-of-Outlaw-Late-Model/DSC01806/206883205_g75Ah-M.jpg)
And this:
![Posted Image](http://www.world-sprintcar-guide.com/images/kinserfrontpage.gif)
All good race cars, uglier than the Delta Wing in my opinion, but as we know, opinion are like...
And I am not even going to mention that mongrel that NASCAR calls a "stock car".
Philippe de Lespinay
#47
Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:29 PM
LM
#48
Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:30 PM
I think most people realize it has 4 wheels.
I think the doubters are just concerned how narrow the track is in the front.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#49
Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:42 PM
I can be the bookie.
![:)](http://slotblog.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png)
Philippe de Lespinay
#50
Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:49 PM
You want ugly? What about this (very fast) mongrel?
Yup. certainly enough lumps & bubbles to give this curmudgeon major hives.
but as we know, opinion[s] are like...
Well, okay--but which of the two items in that little homily would you rather be without?
I think most people realize it has 4 wheels.
....Ehhhhmaybe. I was responding as a clarification to all the tricycle posts on page one here, not trumpeting any big tabloid headlines--certainly not with my byline on 'em.
Duffy
1950-2016
Requiescat in Pace
And I am awaiting
perpetually and forever
a renaissance of wonder