62 replies to this topic

[Ace]

[This topic was split out of the "New IRRA™ approved bodies" topic.]

I am a little confused the Can-Am rules state as follows

All approved Can-Am bodies are listed in the approved bodies list section.
"All bodies must be representative of pre-1970 Can-Am/USARC cars"

I may be incorrect but the most recently-approved Ti22 (OS-473 Ti22R) is really a representation of the Ti22 Mk11 which raced at both Laguna Seca and Riverside which were the last two races of the 1970 Cam-Am season. All photo history points to the Ti22 looking as represented by both the Kirby, Parma, OS 415, and OS short.

Not trying to stir the pot, just confused. Thanks in advance for any help as to this question.

[Noose]

You have the rules correct. My reference was this photo of the car from 1969 at Laguna Seca.

[The Number of]

I notice that the Matra body has a wing or higher body work in the back,will the 1.125" height apply?

Thanks,

Bill

[Noose]

No, Bill, the 1.375" rule will apply, as it does for the Lotus 49.

Thanks for asking.

[Chris Radisich]

So what's with the extra appendages on the new Ti? Those look like how it ran in 1970, not 1969.

[Noose]

I used the referenced photo shown.

[TSR]

This is how it ran in 1970:

CLICK HERE

In 1969 it ran as shown on the M.A.C., Lancer and Kirby examples, meaning without any added front appendages. At the last race of 1969 in Texas, it is clear from period pictures that it did not have any added side dams up front, no added spoiler at the back, but of course it had the big wing. Those dams and a big piece of sheet aluminum were added at the end of year testing session that took place after the Riverside race (after moving wings had been banned) but I do not recall that it was ever raced that way (with added front and rear side fences and higher spoiler) until 1970 after the design was cleaned up. So does it mean that as long as a body was tested in the year, even after all the races were completed, can it be deemed legal?

If not, do not the IRRA™ body regulations forbid post 1969 bodies?

"All bodies must be representative of pre-1970 Can-Am /USRRC cars."

Just asking.

[Noose]

In case anyone hasn't noticed, the currently approved O/S 408L has the exact same front. It may seem more pronounced on this one because the sides taper into the front fenders like the real one.

If you think Ron got any favoritism then please note he had to do four versions before I even went to the BoD for a final vote. These front fins are no higher from the body than the current one.

[TSR]

But I believe they were not there in any of the 1969 races...

[Noose]

PdL... the reference material I went to had this car in 1969. In the first type, Oliver flipped the thing.

[Ron Hershman]

This is how it ran in 1970:

CLICK HERE

In 1969 it ran as shown on the M.A.C., Lancer and Kirby examples.

"All bodies must be representative of pre-1970 Can-Am /USRRC cars."

Wow, now admitting that Lancer made a Ti22... that's a first... I know they did, I have actually seen the Lancer Ti22 mold.

Actually at the last race of the 1969 Can-Am series at Texas Speedway... the Ti22 ran the front "fences" for the very first time as they "stole" the idea from Porsche who ran the "high fences" on their 917PA "blunt/square shovel nose" car at the Riverside Can-Am race which was the race before the final 1969 Can-Am race at Texas.

Speaking of Kirby Ti22's and any other Ti22s with a narrow or angled nose... those didn't run in '69 either.



Here is where the "fences" came from...

[TSR]

I do not wish to be a pain, but Peter Bryant was a very good friend of mine since I met him in early 1970 to his untimely death, and I know a thing or two about this great car. The Ti22 only ran only in 3 races in 1969 as it was a brand new car, barely finished in time for the '69 Laguna Seca event. The single chassis ran the three races in this configuration below, with just that small added rear spoiler and nothing else:



It finished in 13th at Laguna Seca and DNF'ed at Riverside and Texas and the body configuration did not change, but it of course gained a high wing for the last two races.

It is in 1970 that this same chassis, now painted with Norris sponsorship and fitted with the appendages shown on the slot car body you approved, flipped and was destroyed on June 28, at the bumpy St. Jovite race track. Jackie O. walked away, as they say, shaken but not stirred.

"On the first lap at St. Jovite as Oliver crested a rise on the back straight, air turbulence created by the swift passage of the two McLarens lifted the nose of the Autocoast. The front of the car kept rising and it flipped over on its back."

Hence any added appendages other than on this picture above makes a slot car body not legal according to the basic Can-Am rules in both IRRA™ and D3. This is why I am a bit surprised.

However, it is your prerogative to accept the body regardless. But it is a 1970 version of it, not 1969.

[Ron Hershman]

The Ti22 only ran only in 3 races in 1969 as it was a brand new car

It is in 1970 that this same chassis, now painted with Norris sponsorship

And what configuration did it run in it's FOURTH race of 1969 in Japan at the Gr7/Can-Am Gran Prix at Fuji???? You know, that "free ride" Peter and team got to Japan.

The first two races of 1970 it ran in was with Mornin Afta sponsorship... when the car came back after the crash for the last two races it was then painted in Norris colors.

[TSR]

The same. There was no time do do anything more to the car because the engine had blown and all the time was spent to repair it, Mike Lowman and Barry Crowe (borrowed from a private McLaren team) doing the job. There is a picture of it in one of the books I have at Mt. Fuji where it ran just the same. Here is the only picture i could find of it in Texas (taken from a spectator and on a website depicting the race), and it is exactly in the same configuration as the two previous races with no added body parts. You guys are mixing 1969 with 1970. Also the nose on the 1969 917PA never change during racing, but two experimental noses were tested but only after the season was over. Bryant could not have copied the features from that car until after the season, and besides there already were other cars with nose fences, but NOT the Ti22.



Also note that as soon as it had the high wing, the ugly added aluminum spoiler went away as it was no longer necessary.

The car in mid-1970 before the crash:





.

[Ron Hershman]

Also the nose on the 1969 917PA never change during racing, but two experimental noses were tested but only after the season was over. Bryant could not have copied the features from that car until after the season, and besides there already were other cars with nose fences, but NOT the Ti22.

With all due respect... get a clue... the Porsche 917PA RACED IN THE CAN-AM race at Riverside... the car ran the "shovel" nose as it was called with the fences attached to the section of the nose from the front of the front tire/fender down to the mid section of the nose.

Here is the photographic evidence that it ACTUALLY ran in a Can-Am race in 1969.

http://www.turbosrac...NAM/siffert.htm

And that nose was different than this nose ran in earlier races in 1969.



To further prove the point on the 917PA and its shovel nose and to prove that you frankly do not know what you are talking about at times...

"During the year various changes were carried through. The only mechanical modification concerned the exhaust pipes, which were routed out the back."

"Porsche's engineers paid specific attention to the aerodynamics and before the season was over the car sported a sharp 'shovel' style nose."

Link..... http://www.ultimatec...-PA-Spyder.html

And in Bryant's book he mentions taking the idea from the Porsche and using the "fences" at the last two races in Texas and Japan and he went one step further as making the fences on the TI-22 adjustable with "slide bolts" so they could be adjusted during a race on pit stops.

This same idea carried over to the 1970 season/car.

[Ace]

My question related to the top-mounted front fender fences. In Nooses reference photo (post #2) the car does not have them. The car did run at Riverside in 1969 with a high-mounted wing as in post #14. The car with front fender fences and rear wing fence ran at St. Jovite in in 1970.

I have a DVD of the 1970 season; the car was white as in 1969 at that race. Oliver flipped the car on the first lap after qualifying third. The car ran the last two races of the 1970 season in the Norris paint livery as shown in post #14. They did run the car in a special race in Japan in 1969; however that race was not counted as a part of the 1969 Can-Am season.

Did not mean to stir up everyone... sorry.

[TSR]

With all due respect... get a clue... the Porsche 917PA RACED IN THE CAN-AM race at Riverside...

Correct, but the Ti only got these fences in 1970, not in 1969.

[Noose]

OK, I think we can go on to other things now.

[TSR]

Darn, I was going to submit my own version...

[Ron Hershman]

Correct, but the Ti only got these fences in 1970, not in 1969.

OK so this statement from you in a previous post is inkorreck??

"Also the nose on the 1969 917PA never change during racing, but two experimental noses were tested but only after the season was over."

Darn, I was going to submit my own version...

Looks pretty much like all those bodies you "designed" for MAC. Submit it for RetroPro.

[TSR]

Looks pretty much like all those bodies you "designed" for MAC

Hardly... and they were designed for open-class racing, not as semi-scale cars.

Hey, whatever you guys want to do.

Next, use USRA "scale" bodies.

Have fun...

[jimht]

Another addition to the ongoing fetish of running Ti22s because they work better.

Personally I think the only legal bodies for racing should be the ones that actually won some races in the real world during the required time frame (or at least had the decency to have finished the race).

[Noose]

Well, you can't have that extra fold in the spoiler. LOL.

[TSR]

Well, in 5 minutes, we will have the Gurney flap on some 1968 obscure car in the Hungarian Can-Am...

Personally I think the only legal bodies for racing should be the ones that actually won some races in the real world during the required time frame (or at least had the decency to have finished the race).

Jim, that limits you pretty much to the McLaren MK6, McLaren MK8A, McLaren MK8B, McLarenMK8C (which as a slot car all look the same), and a lone win each for an old Porsche 908 and a Chaparral 2E...!

[Ron Hershman]

Well, you can't have that extra fold in the spoiler. LOL.

Hey, can we add the side dams to the driver's helmet???