105 replies to this topic

[Ron Hershman]

Bob, what you have pictured are the Mura "Generation 1" magnets that Mura had made offshore.

Mura sold them as "Super" something, never as yellow dots.

Only Champion sold them as yellow dots.

Mura "Generation 2" magnets came out in '93/94 They were just a tad thicker than the Generation 1 mags.

[Gator Bob]

Thanks, Ron,

Anyone know if the "run" on them was because of the tooling issues?

Are the "modern" Mura C-can magnets (Blue Dots/Cryo/etc.) much better then any Gen. 1 version?

[Ron Hershman]

Anyone know if the "run" on them was because of the tooling issues?
Are the "modern" Mura C-can magnets (Blue Dots/Cryo/etc.) much better then any Gen. 1 version?

The run on "what" exactly, Bob??

The best Mura C-can mags were the ones that are .515" long and would be Gen 2.

Blue Dots were just "matched"(?) by Mura.

Cryo was all BS and hype that never delivered.

[The Bugman]

I'm thinking in the '90s I had two Boxstock Intl. 15 Mura motors, one with red dots and one with white dots and both were full length. Does that sound normal for then, Ron?

[Ron Hershman]

The red dots were shorter length than the white dots. Neither came in Mura motors in that time frame... Mura had their own short length magnet at that time.

I never seen a "long" red dot mag... only short length red dots. All white dots were full length.

Mura started working on their own short length magnet made from better material... they told Champion this and Champ reacted by making the red dots the same length as the soon to come short length Mura magnets.

The modification of the tool ruined it and TDK would not run it any longer and Champion was not going to pay for a new tool to be made.

When Champion ran out of both red and white dot magnets... Mura sold Champion their new magnet OEM and Champion sold them as yellow dots.

[Phil Hackett]

What were the red and yellow dot magnets? Each magnet had a red and yellow dot on them.

[Ron Hershman]

What time frame, Phil? Any idea who sold or packaged them in the manner you describe?

Andy Smith at one time sold "Orange Dots" which were either Mura or Champion mags he matched and repackaged.

[Champion 507]

Phil,

The ones where there were two red dots on one magnet and two yellow dots on the other magnet were Arco DZs from about 1968. They were full length magnets. Like this:

[Phil Hackett]

The 1970s... about the same time as the blue dots.

[Phil Hackett]

While I'm at it: what was the story of the Mura "Black Power" magnets (1970s)? I recall Bob Green saying the magnets were oriented incorrectly. Absolutely useless. Even as paperweights they failed to work.

[Ron Hershman]

This is true... another of those "Samples were great" stories. Made by Stackpole... production were garbage and then Mura used magnets cut from bar stock for many years as Champion back then would not sell their white dots to Mura to be used in Mura motors.

That all changed years later.

[Fast Freddie]

Maybe Ron could tell us about the old (late '80s-early 9'0s) Parma 16D white stripe magnets. My guess is not too many people remember them. I still have a set and they gauss as well as any EXP set and much stronger then any Parma red/white or Trinity 16D magnet. I got mine in a womp car, I think that's how all of them came. Is that right, Ron? Why were they so strong? A special voodoo magnet material?

[Cheater]

Ron and I had this conversation several times and we still differ. Every set of long Champion magnets I ever saw in the bag were red dots and every set of white dots were the shorter version, but he says I have it backwards? Could they been packaged both ways?...

That's my memory as well, Rick. And I think I might even have samples of both to post here. Let me check...

[Ron Hershman]

Maybe Ron could tell us about the old (late '80s-early 9'0s) Parma 16D white stripe magnets. My guess is not too many people remember them. I still have a set and they gauss as well as any EXP set and much stronger then any Parma red/white or Trinity 16D magnet. I got mine in a womp car, I think that's how all of them came. Is that right, Ron? Why were they so strong? A special voodoo magnet material?

There is only one company in China that made those magnets... that magnet shape/profile is a "shelf" item at that factory. Those "white strip" magnets were no better than any other 16D magnet out there. The EXP magnets come from the same factory.

If you had a "batch" of those white stripe magnets you would find many low guassing pieces in the batch.

No voodoo material... just some pieces that either "oriented" or "zapped" better than other pieces in the same batch.

In any batch of molded ceramic magnets you will find magnets that can have as many as 100 points difference between pieces and all coming from the same batch.

Welcome to mass-produced powdered and sintered manufacturing.

[Ron Hershman]

That's my memory as well, Rick. And I think I might even have samples of both to post here. Let me check...

Yes, I have to some digging yet to find out the "release date" of the Red Dot magnets. Of course there could always be mis packaging/marking... like .750" tires in a 13/16" marked tube, .010" body in a .007" package, a S16D motor in a 16D package/label, a Falcon 7 motor in a TSR package, etc., etc., etc.

[Greg VanPeenen]

Ron,

In your opinion what is the best 16D magnet and can/endbell and also C-can Magnets and can/endbell.

Greg V

[TSR]

I know very little about what happened in the slot car world after 1973, simply because I no longer cared. So I never saw a "short" C-can magnet until I saw the evolved versions of the Mura cans in the late 1990s, including the ones marketed by Champion after Champion no longer issued their C-can.

I do know a thing or two about what happened before 1973, and I will soon post here, the various versions of the Arco mags, from the very first to the last ones I used, that were the blue dot full-size mags in my Steube mills.

I took some pictures yesterday at the LASCM and will process them ASAP.

[Gator Bob]

Who has/sells new direct fit neo mags for vintage C or D can drag motors? .510-.560 dia.arm range.

What is/who has the best modern ceramic mags for above?

[Ron Hershman]

Ron,

In your opinion what is the best 16D magnet and can/endbell and also C-can Magnets and can/endbell.

Greg V

Depends on the power, track, lap length, arm wind, etc.

Not sure what is the best....... I have seen 15 buck D Can Chinese set-ups blow away the 50 buck build your own super light weight set-ups and vice versa.

What I think may be the best...many may disagree.....lol.

I don't like endbells that the hardware loosens up, epoxy or super glue won't stick too and those that distort during normal running temps.

Same goes for C Cans.

I think the best "overall" 16-D magnet is the P-S or EXP magnets.....BOTH are the same magnet and material. Some guys have luck with the Brazilian "machined" mags and some don't. The material varies and they are not radialy oriented.

For C Can mags.... I still like those Mura's.

[Ron Hershman]

Who has/sells new direct fit neo mags for vintage C or D can drag motors? .510-.560 dia.arm range.

For C Can's.... the P-S "hard" Mini motor Neo's should fit the C-Cans just fine. The height is right and there is only one thickness.....so to get desired air gap.... you may have to shim them in a bit.

No one makes a "direct fit" D Can Neo magnet that I know of.........you could try a pair of the P-S magnets as mentioned above. They will be a bit short in height but should "center up" in the can fine with some epoxy to hold them in place.

[Gator Bob]

Thanks Ron,

So...... what is the theory and dynamics of the length of the magnets in relation to the length of the stack?

[Ron Hershman]

OK some quick digging and I found some goodies and some things I forgot about.....lol

Pic of Champion White/Blue Dot ( long ) and Champion Red Dot ( short ) Quite a difference.



Champion White/Blue Dot Dimensions

L .635 H .555 T .150

Champion Red Dot

L .500 H .555 T .150

Mura Short Stage 1

L .560" H .540 T .141

Mura Stage 2

L .510" H .550 T .150

Mura Stage 3

L .515 H .555 T .150


Other than dimension sligh dimension differences between the 3 Mura "short" mags.... there is visual differences in radiuses and in the tips. Stage 1 had a larger radius on the edges of the mags while Stage 2 and 3 are more sharper.

Stage 1 tips were a bit narrow and widened on Stage 2 probably for a better magnet clip retention and the tips are the same on Stages 2 and 3.

I remember Stage 1 Mura's not fitting the cans that well due to them being so short and the clip always wanted to be between the can and the top of the magnets. I am sure this caused production/assembly problems and thus the changes in Stage 2.

White and Red dot magnets have a very "rough" face compared to a much smoother face of the Mura mags.

So Bob the Champion magnets you have are Stage 2 Mura mags. They will perform well today.

I didn't find any "long" Red Dot magnets. Not saying they didn't happen but all the Champion Red Dots I ever purchased back in the day.... were the "short" versions. We converted all of our motors at the time from White Dots to the Red Dots and shortly after that to the Mura Stage 1 mags as the Mura mags ran better than the short Red Dots.

[Ron Hershman]

Thanks Ron,

So...... what is the theory and dynamics of the length of the magnets in relation to the length of the stack?

The magnet has to be longer than the stack length of the armature

[Champion 507]

Ron,

How much longer? A few thou, 1/16"?

[boxerdog]

Ron, what were the RJR "pink dot" magnets?