96 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

Chris Radisch posted in another thread:

Must have been the hand-out motors leveling the field for a change..."

and I heard he posted elsewhere with an idea of allowing overpowered motors (G20s) in Retro, in essence, to give everyone more power than they needed, to level the field.

When I first starting posting on slot car websites in 2001 (?), I offered the same solution in a thread on OWH that talked about the disparity in motors in Div.II restricted motor classes.

The problem, while more power could probably be tamed by, arguably, slot racing's finest driver, Chris, could the majority of Retro racers handle it?

My answer is no. IMO, the races would get real sloppy.

Chris wasn't happy with running into one errant car in the F1 A main at ROC. Even in a main with all top drivers, once a racer gets a little bit behind, human nature will have "him" rolling the dice, as we said in G7, "turning up the wick", in an attempt to catch up. I'm pretty sure that would lead to carnage very different than the Retro A Mains I've raced in.

Would a better idea for a "level field" Retro race be, sort of an IROC race, but one where guys could still use their own cars so there wouldn't be any possible nonsense like guys walling and damaging the car they were using that heat.

It would have designated motors for each lane with a conservative pinion on it (6t on a Puppy Dog) so the motor would run super icebox, i.e. have very little chance of slowing down. Of course, a spec crown would be required, both to make sure the motor was under-stressed and to facilitate switching motors from car to car without having to move the pinion.

Could guys pull the motor from their car and reinstall another one in a reasonable time? Say four minutes? Or I am I kidding myself at the possible logistics of it?

Comments?

[Lucky Me]

Mike are you seriously talking about changing the motor eight times? Once per lane change? Or did I not read that right?

If so, that seems like a whole lotta work .

[Mark Wampler]

Chris Radisch posted in another thread,

Must have been the hand-out motors leveling the field for a change..."

and I heard he posted elsewhere with an idea of allowing overpowered motors (G20s) in Retro, in essence, to give everyone more power than they needed, to level the field.

(emphasis mine)

At a casual glance, the bold phrase pretty much calls in question the rest of your statement. Heresay doesn't count. Actual quotes do. To be fair, context is needed when quoting someone.

Just a casual observer, no pot stirring here.

[MSwiss]

At a casual glance, the bold phrase pretty much calls in question the rest of your statement. Heresay doesn't count. Actual quotes do. To be fair, context is needed when quoting someone.

Just a casual observer, no pot stirring here.

I'm sure someone else can confirm it.

[MSwiss]

Mike are you seriously talking about changing the motor eight times? Once per lane change? Or did I not read that right?

If so, that seem's like a whole lotta work .

I am serious.

It would be the best way I can think of to "level the playing field", HP-wise.

While it wouldn't totally eliminate racing luck, someone who won the race in such a format, could say with some certainty, that he had the best car and drove the best race, that day.

[JHMerriman]

Am I the only one who thinks this whole "motor problem" is stupid? I agree with Mr. Swiss on this one, putting more HP in the current cars would be absolute carnage. Hell, while we are at it... let's put some open motors in the cars so at least the cars will be destroyed faster! Should make for a short and exciting race at least.

If faster motors are put in the cars, controllers with built in chokes will become a requirement. This is just my opinion, ignore it if you wish.

[kvanpelt]

With all due respect, Mike, the idea of changing motors every lane would certainly turn off my new-found Retro love.

I've watched from a distance and dipped my piggy in the Retro thing a couple times before this past weekend at the ROC, and have kept my distance because of all the grumblings of the motor issues associated with Retro.

With the decision to run blueprinted hand-out motors with the gems and turds pulled from the pot gave me, a casual Retro racer, a desire to attend the race and give a good effort. I believe the effort Ron and Pro Slot made with the motors was excellent and there were very few complaints that I heard at my end of the raceway. The racing was close and produced a few different guys on the podiums in most races. Definitely what I believe was desired and needed by the organizers.

I would think tweaking some of the issues that Ron and Roger may have experienced running the race may be a better approach. I used one motor all weekend, it can't get much better than that. I bought all four that was allowed by the rules, but honestly, they were almost identical on my Koford power supply.

Has there been any discussion within the BoD of the IRRA having a pool of hand-out motors to supply for the major races? I understand hand-outs would be a major upfront expense for the track owners, maybe something along this line of thinking could solve that issue.

I know from my perspective, trying to gear up and get a competitive motor program is one of my major concerns. These motors are a little more expensive than a Falcon motor, to buy a bunch just to get a good one. We both know that was one of the things that killed a very good series in Chicago a few years back.

[Ron Hershman]

It would have designated motors for each lane with a conservative pinion on it (6t on a Puppy Dog) so the motor would run super icebox, i.e. have very little chance of slowing down.

But then the cars would be "underpowered". LOL.

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

That is certainly a creative idea. But wouldn't that just lead to another list of complaints? " The last guy walled his car and bound up the motor" ,or "... knocked a magnet loose." Or maybe "he must have used something like comm drops because it's a turd in my car and he was running 4.6s."

A better question to ask is, "When will all this crap stop?". A competitive environment invites competitive people. It's how those people handle that competitive pressure that shows the quality of character. And how long the particular type of competition remains viable.

[Ron Hershman]

A better question to ask is "When will all this crap stop?". A competitive environment invites competitive people. It's how those people handle that competitive pressure that shows the quality of character. And how long the particular type of competition remains viable.

It will stop when it's killed off and over. It's that six to seven year cycle that I speak of and guess what... we are going into our sixth year now. Mr McMasters knows exactly what I am talking about.

[MSwiss]

With all due respect, Mike, the idea of changing motors every lane would certainly turn off my new -found Retro love.

My thought was just as a special event, for the Uber' retro racers/drivers like Chris.

[MSwiss]

Has there been any discussion within the BOoD of the IRRA having a pool of hand-out motors to supply for the major races?

With what money?

In case you aren't aware, we don't charge anything to be second-guessed by the same ffour to five guys about the IRRA™ rules.

[slotcarone]

It seems to me we are discussing and trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist!!

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

It will stop when it's killed off and over. It's that six to seven year cycle that I speak of and guess what... we are going into our sixth year now. Mr McMasters knows exactly what I am talking about.

That I do. How many times have we both seen that happen? Here is to hoping Retro can avoid it. History doesn't HAVE to repeat itself if we are careful and smart in the management of the program.

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

It seems to me we are discussing and trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist!!

NEVER a more true statement made on the blog.

[MSwiss]

That is certainly a creative idea. But wouldn't that just lead to another list of complaints? "The last guy walled his car and bound up the motor"... he must have used something like comm drops.

I don't think a racer would risk destroying his own car to screw up the motor for the next guy.

The race would require a hot pit to observe the switching of motors.

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

I agree. I don't think it would necessarily happen on purpose but it could/would happen. And a hot pit would go along way to stop comm drops, etc.

And I meant what I said about the idea being creative and clever. But I really don't think there is a problem with motors that needs fixing. No matter how clever or creative. And the chances are good it won't stop the bitching, just deflect it somewhere else.

And finally, as you said yourself, is it worth the trouble to massage those four or five that are never happy?

[Dominator]

The Pro Slot motors are fairly consistent on most tracks. On a high-banked King track there is a noticeable difference between performance, especially down the straight.

The idea behind swapping the motors between cars between heats with a gear rule is interesting and should be able to be completed in four minutes. The current horsepower the motors are producing is fine. When you start pushing sub-4.0s on any track, carnage and Murphy's Law will take effect even with the best racers with any class of car. If there is a large enough group craving more speed there is always RetroPro.

Modelville Hobby had a Can-Am IROC race on June 2 with 18 entries. The racing was very close all with Falcon 7 motors and the race was ran on the Gerding King with only ten laps separating first through tenth.

[Cheater]

I'm sure someone else can confirm it.

I saw Chris's post and can confirm Mike's statement.

What I can't do is locate it again. Perhaps Chris will see this and give a link.

It was a very reasonable argument, as is Mike's rebuttal IMO.

[shadow]

If everyone thinks the other guy's motor is better, why don't they put a claiming price on them? Then you can quit bitching because YOU will have the best motor!

[Noose]

Changing motors every heat is the exact reason I quit racing the first time. There is no problem so there is nothing to fix as Mr. Katz pointed out.

The only problem I see is the proverbial desire to have more speed. What the heck for? Think Geek, and not Speed.

[Ralph Thorne]

Mike, are you honestly considering this for the Sano 6 ?

I'm with Dave, put up the money or quit your bitching...

[Lucky Me]

Management should never allow the tail to wag the dog... just like several people have pointed out, were gonna have a race with or without you.

If the four or five people can't handle the current rule-set/situation then maybe they should find another sandbox.

I personally do not see a problem with the motors we have now. Get over it!

There seems to be all of a sudden a lot of verbiage about creating races for the hobby's "best" drivers, instead of dwelling on motors, create invitationals for these people to satisfy the egos of humanity. Tons of races can be created, but that does not mean "all" will come. The economy does have a lot to do with things, as well as people's familes that have an agenda as well...

Just saying...

[MSwiss]

To reiterate, the "change the motor every heat" idea was for a one-off race for the "Giants of Retro" to battle it out on the most level playing field I can conceive of, horsepower-wise.

Definitely not part of the regular Sano event.

[Mark Wampler]

Seems to me if you want to go faster with the same motors, then build anglewinders. I can point to two former D3 classes where that happened.

Slot racing will always be about going faster. Once a class of cars has ran its course, and the majority of racers are yawning, then other ways of making it interesting will be up to the track owners and franchise organizers.