96 replies to this topic

[Rick Davis]

Certainly liked the pedigreed hand-out motor concept used at this race and thought it was important enough to support in the middle of my R/C season.

What would it take to narrow the herd further... is there manufacturing technology available at reasonable cost to make sure the advance on the arms is the same (+/- some small tolerance)? I've seen open motors with more precise aluminum endbells and with modern CNC technology it would seem to me that this would be achievable and would eliminate the endbell here and there with brush hood off-center. One of my F1 motors was so off center (retarded) you could see it with your naked eye and it was a slug. This could possibly be funded by having IRRA™ memberships and if you were a member your rental (the IRRA™ would take the motors back at the end of an event) fee for a motor at a large race would be less than that for a non-member.

My reason for the line of reasoning is to further eliminate the fast or slow motor luck of the draw from the equation.

[Mark Wampler]

Do the hand-out motors all over again and there could be a different outcome altogether.

Luck of the draw boys... nothing more, nothing less.

Why hand-out motor format works for major events. Cheaper on the left coast.

[MrWeiler]

Hand-out motors = the person who gets the best random motor has the best chance.

Gp20 motors = The person who is best at driving an overpowered car has the best chance.

Either way I'll show up to race when I can.

[Ralph Thorne]

What if the person with the best hand-out motor is the worst driver? Do they still have the best chance to win?

What if you have two drivers of like skill? Then it becomes which of the two have the best motor, again.

There just is no way to determine who's "the best". There are too many uncontrolled variables in slot racing.

Besides, who really cares?

[Mark Wampler]

A alternate way to say it would be "What if average Joe gets a hot motor, but doesn't set it up well in a mediocre car and has below average driving skills"? Has nothing to do with the motor, but will hopefully gain a few more laps than if he had a less than average motor.

Each qualifier runs within their peer group and so actually even the average Joe is running with other qualified Joes. It falls upon each one to stay in the slot and improve their driving. At race start it's all about driving skill. Up until then, it's about tuning, including right tire choice, weight distribution, and other perceived "secrets" to a winning car.

A faster motor means a faster guy goes faster. A faster motor for a slower guy will benefit a slower guy, but not as much as the faster guy.

[Ron Hershman]

Why Hand-out motor format works for major events. Cheaper on the left coast.

Wasn't it you who was bitching about the hand-out motors you got at the CPC race??? Pulled out of the race and left because your motor was so dog slow?

[MantaRay]

Ron is having a "Devil" of a time...

[kvanpelt]

It's a good thing I had to work today, but let me see if I'm getting this straight.

Mike Swiss, a BoD chair in the IRRA™, a host of a premier Retro race, makes a post soliciting comments regarding a possible change regarding race format. Some of us that took the time to think about and respond with our thoughts are told basically to suck it up, shut our mouths, and race the way it is or go away. There was no whining in my post, just some observations from a racer outside your Retro world.

I've been around long enough to know racing, in any form, is more than just motor, chassis, tire, set-up, or driver. If one area is lacking then work harder on the others to compensate. I do it all the time.

My bet would be those that don't want change already have their connections for cheaper or cherrypicked stuff. Hand-outs would take that away.

I sure could use a connection, my wallet is over $700 thinner for what I paid to both of my local tracks in the week leading up to ROC and the race itself. From the conversation I overheard by a top tier Retro hot shoe bragging of his connection, I'll spend twice the money on PD motors as he just for the same odds of getting a desent one. Of course that would be assuming the PDs he gets were not cherry-picked, otherwise my expense would be even more.

No wonder why he didn't like the handout deal, that is until he realized he got a really good one.

[John Streisguth]

With anything manufactured, there is going to be a range of how close each item is to the specifications to which it is made. So, pay a higher price at each race and take the luck of the draw? Spend money on buying a dozen or two motors to find the best performing ones? Like others, I have found what may work good on one track on one particular day means nothing when you go to another track on another day. Neither option is perfect, and some people will like one option over the other. In general, I don't think you're going to get much closer to parity than what is currently raced in the IRRA™ classes.

So going back to the start of the thread, maybe this would be an option for one race at the Sano, IF enough people were interested. But my guess is that it should be an additional race, and not replace the main classes.

[MantaRay]

See post #45

Exactly.

No thought to change things as they are. Just a sideshow event like NASCAR has every year.

[Mark Wampler]

Wasn't it you who was bitching about the hand-out motors you got at the CPC race??? Pulled out of the race and left because your motor was so dog slow?

Actually that did happen a couple of years ago right at the close of the D3 organization as it originally functioned. The dog motors were the icing on the cake. Without regurgitating all the events of that particular race, it was the last straw that ended D3 and led to the beginning of SCRRA. All of the racers were given the riot act from the director's stand, and out of respect for D3, I won't say any more.

What I will say is that SCRRA has stepped up and shown racers a good program, good attitude, and most of all, FUN.

It wasn't too long ago that a couple of top A Main racers ended up with slow motors and had to scrounge and fight their way in the C Mains. It further proves that dog motors can happen to anyone.

[Arne Saknussem]

When I read Mike's original post I thought it was a Swiftian satire of the "Modest Proposal" type. The fact that it turned up such a serious discussion is interesting, indeed.

[911GT3]

In my opinion, leave it alone. There seems to be a belief by some that a motor is the only factor in the Retro equation. In my observations, the top drivers know how to read what their car is doing during practice and adjust for it. The top drivers also know how to get them most out of their cars on the track. Having driven a couple of cars built by (in my opinion) top Retro builders, there is definitely more than motors at stake. In that experience, using a hand-out motor and a well set-up chassis improved my result considerably. This shows me that the motor is not the most important factor to winning a race.

What are we going to do? Fix one thing that isn't broken and then find something else to complain about that is unfair?

Continuing on like this will become too onerous to even bother racing anymore. I would much rather spend my time learning how to drive as smoothly as Ron Hershman, Chris Radisich, or Rick Davis and set up a car like Rande Marshall than try to figure out how to change a motor in between heats.

Please leave the IRRA™ formula alone. It isn't broken. Those that think motors are the key to winning should find another series.

[The Number of]

When I read Mike's original post I thought it was a Swiftian satire of the "Modest Proposal" type. The fact that it turned up such a serious discussion is interesting, indeed.

Whew, I thought I was the only one that got the joke!

[Chris Radisich]

My only reasoning for adding more horsepower to a class than the car can handle is so that there is no longer a need for people to have so many motors. Running Retro is no different to running B-Production/LMP/GT1, GT12, GTP, or 16Ds on a banked track. You always had to have plenty of motors to find the golden one in amongst your collection on a given day on a given track.

With people claiming in other threads they have upwards of 50 motors in their collection, how can anyone say things "are not broke"? I started out Retro with three motors, and now, who knows how many I actually have. It's crazy.

All I am saying, and have been saying for a long time, is there may be a better way where the focus can come off testing your heart out to find that fastest motor in your collection at every race, and that just possibly if you take horsepower out of the equation people might just be bale to enjoy their Retro racing a little more instead of fighting each other for every available minute of track time because they are trying to test motor after motor.

An interesting observation from the ROC. With everyone limited to two motors on Can-Am day, it was the easiest track to get onto during practice. No long lines, no waiting at almost any time. Seems to be another benefit from hand-out motors.

Of course my ultimate answer, as would be expected, to level the horsepower fight is lets all race on flat tracks, and take horsepower out of the equation...

[Ron Hershman]

1. An interesting observation from the ROC. With everyone limited to two motors on Can-Am day, it was the easiest track to get onto during practice. No long lines, no waiting at almost any time. Seems to be another benefit from handout motors.

2. Of course my ultimate answer, as would be expected, to level the horsepower fight is lets all race on flat tracks, and take horsepower out of the equation...

1. Well, if there had been 70 entries... well... practice time could have been a problem.

2. Sounds like a new series... who do we get to organize and run it???

[Ralph Thorne]

My vote is for:

RFTRA, Retro Flat Track Racing Association.

President - Chris Radisich
Vice President - Jay Guard

[Noose]

Where's that like button?

[Ralph Thorne]

On Facebook with what seems like the majority of posts these days.

[Mike Patterson]

Here's my take on how to fix the perceived motor problem...

On race day, everybody turns in their Puppy Dog to race control, equipped with a 7 tooth angled pinion, and marked (preferably initials) so they can identify it. The motors are placed in a suitable container, and everybody picks out a motor. That's what you race with. And since every motor has been marked in some way as to identify it's owner, it should be easy to note on the tech sheet who is running whose motor.

[Mark Wampler]

There are a few racers at BP who dislike the horsepower track and IF they race, it's only if there are hand-out motors. It's a policy that has worked well. Hand-outs for horsepower. Flat tracks lean towards chassis design and driver skill much more than motor.

[Bernie]

Here's my take on how to fix the perceived motor problem...

On race day, everybody turns in their Puppy Dog to race control, equipped with a 7 tooth angled pinion, and marked (preferably initials) so they can identify it. The motors are placed in a suitable container, and everybody picks out a motor. That's what you race with. And since every motor has been marked in some way as to identify it's owner, it should be easy to note on the tech sheet who is running whose motor.

Interesting proposal... I would be up for a flat track "major event" for sure.

[Ron Hershman]

Equipped with a "brand new" pinion. No raggedy-*** pinions please.

What happens if you draw out your own motor? You said you race what you pull... LOL.

[Mark Wampler]

If Mr. Patterson's idea can't be shot through by Ron (so far he hasn't), it's a good idea.

[Mike Patterson]

It would be too easy to "mark" a motor, a little solder protrusion here, a different bend to a bus bar. If you pull your own motor, it will be held out, and you will pick again. The only way someone could race with their own motor would be if they were the last draw, and their motor was the only one left.

If a racer thought the supplied pinion was "raggedy-***", he could replace it at his expense.