96 replies to this topic

[Cheater]

Mark,

My take is that the issue isn't really about going faster...

[jimht]

Requiring a racer to build an under-horsepowered car is a way of finding out who can get the most out of the least.

Allowing a racer to build an over-horsepowered car is a way of finding out who can build something that handles the power, stays together and can drive it to a win.

The latter showcases more skill sets than the former, even though the former is more popular to the masses because it is less costly in time and money.

Eliminating a particular skill set by controlling motors, chassis, tires, controllers, etc., etc., may be an interesting way of doing things but it always favors those who are better at what's left.

To find out who's the best all-around builder-driver one has to allow fast motors, not make everyone use the same wimpy motor.

[Ron Hershman]

My take is that the issue isn't really about going faster...

And putting Group 20 motors in inlines is not?

[John Miller]

Personally, I think they are plenty fast right now. If you want to go faster race a different series. If you don't like the motor program, race a different series.

[Ralph Thorne]

Personally, I think they are plenty fast right now. If you want to go faster race a different series. If you don't like the motor program, race a different series.

Exactly ! Well said Malachi 2.

So John, who ended up with the most money last weekend? LOL.

[Ace]

Changing motors between each heat would be difficult.

1) Motor brackets do not have the same offset mounting face to axle centerline.

2) This would require moving the pinion at each motor change.

Then you would need to spec the motor bracket and that would upset someone else.

[jimht]

I thought Swiss's intent was a discussion of sorting out the best of the best in Retro in an event for the best of the best.
It has nothing to do with the difficulty some of you might have with the mechanics of the event.

If you can't handle it, you shouldn't play.

There's nothing wrong with Retro generally as it's structured now... the discussion is about having a race where the rules are set to determine who's the best all-around racer without the restrictions that may favor the "weak and unworthy".

[Ron Hershman]

Personally, I think they are plenty fast right now. If you want to go faster race a different series. If you don't like the motor program, race a different series.

Agreed... but the problem with doing that is... costs as much or more money to do so and not much participation at those other races compared to the Retro races.

They don't want to do that... they want to have the rules changed to their advantage the same way as they have done in the other types of racing and orgs.

They say it will be better for everyone... it's only better for them. Look around the room... if it's not full... it's not good for everyone else.

[Fast Freddie]

Not knowing the whole thread comment it would seem to me that the small quote Mike highlighted would indicate that Chris was talking about how the hand-out motors leveled the playing field in the ROC, since the usual suspects didn't do so well.

I would suspect that Chris was hoping this same hand-out motor format would work for the Sano race to preclude any talk about suspect motors and maybe even different podium winners. What a novel idea.

Why not also include the R4? That would really cause some grief.

[Ron Hershman]

I thought Swiss's intent was a discussion of sorting out the best of the best in Retro in an event for the best of the best.

We do that already and about six times/races per year now days.

The best of the best are the guys continually at the top race after race. To get there... one must be a decent driver/racer to begin with, one must spend the time to do it continually, one must spend the money to do it continually, one must build constantly to do it continually, andone must prep as good or better to do it continually.

This is what it takes in all forms of slot racing to be on top. One guy does not win every race and all the time. To me there is no "best" in Retro racing... there are several guys who could be called that and that is up to the peanut gallery to decide for themselves who is the best.

At the ROC... there were twelve podium spots available... three were filled by three guys never on a Retro podium before (and that is great in my book) the other nibe were repeat Retro podium finishers.

Nope, no new Retro winners either... all the winners at this race have won Retro races elsewhere.

Not much changed and it wasn't hand-out motors that made that happen alone. It still took good driving, good cars, good prep, and a bit of luck for that to happen for anyone that was there. Just the same as if everyone uses their own motors in a race.

[Cheater]

And putting Group 20 motors in inlines is not?

That's not the topic here, Ron. The topic here is Mike's suggestion of a way to eliminate the never-ending whining about the motors used in Retro by making the motor everyone uses a constant.

I doubt either Chris's idea or Mike's are practical and workable, but I try to keep an open mind to brainstorming of this sort.

The IRRA™ motor situation is an imperfect compromise at best, but there is a small number who are probably never going to be happy until a perfect situation is achieved. Of course, the prefection they seek is always according to their personal definition of perfect.

[Ron Hershman]

That's not the topic here, Ron. The topic here is Mike's suggestion of a way to eliminate the never-ending whining about the motors used in Retro by making the motor everyone uses a constant.

I guess you missed this statement in Mike's post??

and I heard he posted elsewhere with an idea of allowing overpowered motors (G20s) in Retro, in essence, to give everyone more power than they needed, to level the field.

Seems like part of the topic to me.

[Ron Hershman]

The topic here is Mike's suggestion of a way to eliminate the never-ending whining about the motors used in Retro by making the motor everyone uses a constant.

The whining will never end... someone will always have a faster motor than the other guy. That's why the motor business in every class is good for business.

Hand-out racing... a guy gets a slower motor and he whines. A guy with a good motor is happy until another guy comes up with a faster motor and then he whines.

Same with build your own motors or refurbed motors.

Not all motors are the same in performance (hand-out or build your own )... the thing all of us racers have chased for years... gotta find, buy, or build a faster motor. Never changes... never will.

The motors we use in Retro are a "constant" we all have to race the same... it's just some run better than others. This is why some guys have bought 50 or more PDs over time... chasing and looking for that faster motor.

[jimht]

Not much changed and it wasn't hand-out motors that made that happen alone. It still took good driving, good cars, good prep, and a bit of luck for that to happen for anyone that was there. Just the same as if everyone uses their own motors in a race.

Uh, Ron, if everyone can build or buy whatever motors they want for a race, the complaining about "unequal" equal motors goes away.

Yes, there's no equality in motors, but knowing what to put in the car and being allowed to do so is another way of separating the best from the rest.

[Noose]

Sorry, but this is huge turn-off to me. If you look at the results over the years it is the same guys at the top either at the big races or regionally. Gee... wonder why? Has nothing to do with the motors.

[JHMerriman]

How many people run perfect (not falling off) races? Maybe people should work on their driving and chassis instead of complaining about motors.

Just a thought.

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

Here's a thought, Greg. Since we both know there never will be a "perfect answer" why not just ignore the whinners and continue on with what is a proven successful formula... the IRRA™. No... not perfect. But it's proven it works.

MSwiss idea is indeed clever. As a "showcase" event it would be doable. My concern is that it might just add fuel to the fire of those that feel motors are a major issue. The fact that Ron didn't win the ROC seems to have given them "proof" of their argument. REALLY! The innuendo is heavy on that topic. Ron had a bad weekend. Considering the amount of time and effort Ron spends at racing those bad weekends are few. But Rick Davis is a very good racer as is Chris R and others. Why not give them the credit they are do instead of insinuating it had everything to do about motors?

[Noose]

Mike, great, great comment.

[Ralph Thorne]

Ron had a DNF in F1, that had nothing to do with motor. In Can-Am he still made the mMain with what was arguably the slowest hand-out motor in that race. If he had got a motor like Howie or Chris R., I can guarantee the results would be very different. Becasue he is one of the best drivers in the world he took a below average motor and ran very well with it.

Those of you who think he didn't win because he didn't have his own motors are sadly mistaken, and need to get over it. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, if you feel there is a problem just put up your money for a tear-down.

All of this cheating talk yet no one has done this?

[MSwiss]

Here's a thought, Greg. Since we both know there never will be a "perfect answer" why not just ignore the whinners and continue on with what is a proven successful formula... the IRRA™. No... not perfect. But it's proven it works.

MSwiss idea is indeed clever. As a "showcase" event it would be doable.

Exactly.

No thought to change things as they are. Just a sideshow event like NASCAR has every year.

[Cheater]

Seems like part of the topic to me.

No, it is not. That topic engendered this topic wherein Mike has proposed an alternative. Not a single post in this thread is in support of Chris's idea, as far as I can tell.

[JohnnySlotcar]

Gee, anyone had a chance of winning the race at Roger's last weekend! Isn't this what we were [almost] all shooting for?

[Ralph Thorne]

If I remember correctly there were over 20 cars within a tenth in qualifying.

[John Miller]

Ralph, my lame brother got the best of me.

[Ron Hershman]

Do the hand-out motors all over again and there could be a different outcome altogether. Doing the same on a American King track could have had a different outcome as well. The track and style of track had something to do with it as well.

Luck of the draw boys... nothing more, nothing less.

I pulled my motors and ran them like the rest of you... they weren't the fastest and they weren't the slowest... they were mine to run and I did... no crying here and I would do another hand -out race tomorrow because it's luck of the draw.

It is what it was. The same for everyone when it came to the draw and everyone knew that all the motors were not going to run the same going into the race.

John Austin said it correctly... lots of guys had the chance to win last weekend. Three different drivers won the main events.