51 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

The $10,000 question.....Why are we NOT using this motor in retro racing? It has the proper(legal) wind. Has anyone submitted the HAWK to the IRRA or SCRRA for approval?

The motor was tested and it was a little too good.

 

IMO, it would of obsoleted the Puppy Dog motor.

 

As far as proper wind, while it is the same as a Falcon 7 or TSR D3, it's in a package with full size brushes.

[havlicek]

 

IMO, it would of obsoleted the Puppy Dog motor.

 

 

 I was waiting for someone to say something like that!  No doubt about it, even though I can't say if that's the reason since I don't race.

 

-john

[Paul's Slots]

Hey folks, we have been runing the jk 3030 motor for about 6 months now, in my opion this is a very cool little motor....very good speed and with a 10-38 gearing on a 135 ft track with a 40 ft straight it pulled very good indeed. The setup started with a totally bound up motor.....they come with too long brushes, and need short ones to not have the log side of the spring hit and bind the brushes. Even the Koford setup that comes with a great little arm and very nice springs, are in fact setup the same way...bound up.
Now I'm playing withe the koford setup but of course with short.brushes
Now I really don't think that the koford arm is that much faster but I feel that these arms will last for a great deal longer and are rebuildable.....We moved the racing to a shorter track now, about 75ft with about a 20 ft straight....I now am at 8-39...maybe a little short but had the lowest et last week....running a JK 11chassis...and a truscale canam mclearn ...
I am building a total bearing hawk now with the bearing in the can and the endbell...the endbell is a jk alum....it reminds me of working with a eurosport motor....I'm very excited to see the outcome....still staying with the 8-39 gearing...we will see where this goes....be watching for replys....Paul

[Gator Bob]

Gents, This may have been covered but ...??

 

1- Which 6MM Ball Bearings would be the best for the Hawk6?

2- Is the black or the white (natural) colored endbell more heat tolerant or are they both the same?

3 - Do MK1 or other endbells fit these cans?

4- What would be the best hardware for a Hawk6 motor (unlimited) that does not need to meet any rule book spec.?

5- Any timing suggestions?

 

 HOT !!! For Drag Only use.

 

It is all going in an "H" Power Strong Arm Unlimited  .... 

Maybe we can call it a Hawk-H/u ... or .... T.Rex    

 

Thanks......

[SlotStox#53]

Aha!! So John is winding you a Drag arm !!! Sweet ,what chassis is it going in Bob?

[Don Weaver]

2- Is the black or the white (natural) colored endbell more heat tolerant or are they both the same?

3 - Do MK1 or other endbells fit these cans?

 

 

I would try and see if the alloy endbells available for the ProSlot motors will fit.  Would solve a lot of heat problems.  If you want I can get one from Slots of Fun and send it to you.

 

For timing, airgap and other questions PM Marty N here at SlotBlog......he's the drag car guru and has a wealth of information.

 

Don Weaver

[Gator Bob]

 Don,

Great suggestions and thanks for the offer too.

I'll look into it.

[Gator Bob]

 

1- Which 6MM Ball Bearings would be the best for the Hawk6?

2- Is the black or the white (natural) colored endbell more heat tolerant or are they both the same?

3 - Do MK1 or other endbells fit these cans?

 

Bump.... John H. has the 'Big Wire' arm done and I want to get straight with the set-up.

 

2- Is the black or the white (natural) colored endbell more heat tolerant or are they both the same?

3 - Do MK1 or other endbells fit these cans?

 

 

I would try and see if the alloy endbells available for the ProSlot motors will fit.  Would solve a lot of heat problems.  If you want I can get one from Slots of Fun and send it to you.

 

For timing, airgap and other questions PM Marty N here at SlotBlog......he's the drag car guru and has a wealth of information.

 

Don Weaver

 

Don,

Who makes the (alum.?) alloy endbells?

 

[SlotStox#53]

Bob ,JK make the alloy endbells for the hawk.. it fits the Proslot minican motors too.

Part #JK 30303 looks a sweet little item. Perfect bulletproofing for that missile of an arm!

[havlicek]

I'm definitely out of my element here, but we're dealing with neo magnets in a drag motor.  Neos can not get really hot or they'll die, or at least lose a good chunk of their strength.  I don't know that an alloy end bell is necessary as much as taking every precaution to avoid (in so far as it's possible) heat in the first place.  The setup needs to be a good as possible with the arm perfectly centered, spring insulation and heavy shunts, bearings and as little end play as possible without binding.  If this were going to be a road racer (as if that were even possible), then there would be good reason to expect godawful heat and try and live with it, but I think cobalts would then be the way to go.  Marty N has all kinds of information on all this for sure!

 

-john

 

PS, there will be plenty of shaft on the end bell end of the motor for a com cooler per your request Bob.  Heck, you could even run the motor full sidewinder and have two pinions and two spurs for a "positraction" dragster

[Gator Bob]

Thanks for the tip Paul and Don,

 

So here is the Aluminum endbell for the Hawk 6 from JK. 

 

What is the common practice for insulating the hardware ?

 

 The arm is close to a dead short ... I don't want to get any closer than .079 Ohms.

 

[Gator Bob]

Hey
I am building a total bearing hawk now with the bearing in the can and the endbell...the endbell is a jk alum....it reminds me of working with a eurosport motor....I'm very excited to see the outcome....still staying with the 8-39 gearing...we will see where this goes....be watching for replys....Paul

 

Gents, This may have been covered but ...??

 

1- Which 6MM Ball Bearings would be the best for the Hawk6?

2- Is the black or the white (natural) colored endbell more heat tolerant or are they both the same?

3 - Do MK1 or other endbells fit these cans?

4- What would be the best hardware for a Hawk6 motor (unlimited) that does not need to meet any rule book spec.?

5- Any timing suggestions?

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the tip Paul and Don,

 

So here is the Aluminum endbell for the Hawk 6 from JK.

 

What is the common practice for insulating the hardware ?

 

The arm is close to a dead short ... I don't want to get any closer than .079 Ohms.

 

jk30303al.jpg

 

[havlicek]

Hi Bob,

 

     Since nobody is stepping up, I'm guessing that you use the stock hardware on this end bell and that it's already insulated???  I guess no one here has used that end bell on their Hawk motors (because the end bell with no hardware costs way more than the whole motor!)

 

-john

[Bill from NH]

I've not used this particular JK endbell, but the SMF line (Schenectady, NY) of C-can aluminum endbells were provided insulation by their anodizing. If the anodizing got scraped off in the screw holes, shots were introduced. I have a couple un-anodized aluminum endbells from the 70's. Those were insulated using phenolic arm spacers beneath the brush plates & hardware mounted with nylon screws.

[jimht]

It ain't rocket science, the stuff to use metal hardware with aluminum endbells has been around since the Sixties.

 

For instance:

Toss the junky aluminum hardware and screws.

 

Proslot PS-642 hardware kit (the screws are a little long and the plate under the brush is unnecessary, deburr to make sure the hood doesn't ding the anodizing).

Alpha 891 insulators (an insulator on each screw before it's screwed in isolates the screw from the hardware, just need to check for a short after inserting each screw and ream holes in hoods if necessary).

 

A nice alternative to the regular plastic Proslot and JK F can endbells for those who don't consider more expense for quality to be unreasonable.

[havlicek]

 

 

It ain't rocket science, the stuff to use metal hardware with aluminum endbells has been around since the Sixties.

 

Maybe not (insert snarky quip here) , but he asked the question and waited, but nobody answered.  I'll never understand why people can't simply give an answer...or not.

 

-john

[Paul Kovich]

He needs to be careful of the skin effect though. 

[Gator Bob]

Thanks John and Bill,

 

Ever since I first saw aluminum end bells in the not so back in the day the concept always seemed to be a compromise. I've never had or used one.

 

If you have to electrically insulate then the result is you will be thermally isolating. So the heat sinking thermal flow would only have a path from the can to endbell mating surface. This could have some cooling advantage for the magnets but it would not be much help in keeping the arm or its commutator cooler.

 

Other points: IMO

1- I can't really see trusting anodize as an insulator in a threaded hole. 

2- By mounting the hardware on phenolic spacer 'jack-stands' that would create an air gap that could be filled with heat sink compound but I don't see that assembly method being free from vibration.

3- Nylon screws would make me 'nervous' as I think they would be at or over their torque and/or thermal limits.

4- Nylon flanged insulators at the mounting points would 'look' logical but same issues as in #2 above.

5- I have Mica insulation wafer, IIRC is like .007 thick which would be more stable for the hardware plates but would still be a thermal insulator and non-conductive screws would still be required.

 

So .... with all that bla,bla,bla said .... for this application .... John is right, stick with the stock materal part to save money, time and aggravation.

 

Now ... Does anyone know???

Is the black or natural endbell material more heat tolerant?

Is the P/S or the JK 'plastic' more heat tolerant?

Would boiling the 'plastic' in water (or oil) change its properties? ... guys that dye stuff might have some insight to the effects.

 

Thanks to all that reply.

[havlicek]

I'm pretty sure that both color end bells are about the same as far as heat tolerance Bob and, if there is a difference, it's not significant.  I DO believe though that the white one may have a bit more room inside which would be good for heat if it's true.  As for boiling the end bells, some end bell compounds actually can benefit from this...the old Muras for one seem to get a little "rejuvenated" by doing this.  In any case, dyeing the end bell red, blue or yellow looks cool, and that's always good for a few tenths.

 

-john

[Paul Kovich]

In these motors aluminum endbells are over kill, but its standard practice in race motors generally, for a lot of reasons, cooling, precision and strength. When you are running a 28 mag 84.5 you don't want to be depending on a plastic endbell 4 minutes into a 5 minute heat when you take an unexpected wall shot. The anodizing works fine on the endbells, when assembled as Jim suggests. Backing plates are not needed as long as assembly is done correctly. Anodized screws, insulators and anodized spring posts make the issue of shorts not a problem.

 

ps, you don't mount the hardware on the insulators, the hardware is mounted flush to the endbell and the screw securing it to the endbell has an insulating washer which separates the screw from the hardware. 

[Gator Bob]

I was typing in my spaceship when you guys were replying.

He needs to be careful of the skin effect though. 

 

hey Paul ______ on the skin effect comment.

[SlotStox#53]

Have no clue on boiling of the endbells etc but as John says Dyeing the endbell would add to the kool factor and easily good for a few tenths   Nothing like good presentation

 

Can't wait to see you put this Drag   together Bob , it's gonna be a missile

[jimht]

I've not used anything hotter than a 16t24 in a Hawk 6 setup on my 180' Engleman.   

As Paul indicates aluminum endbells could be overkill except for when dealing with standard Open arms in wing cars.

In that case nothing is overkill, ever,... and normal rocket science has been out the window and way behind the curve when dealing with the kinds of armatures used in Opens nowadays and prior.

An aluminum endbell provides better heat sinking and stability than plastic ever will.

Bakelite was used back in the dark ages but was too brittle.

The drag racing applications may not need the Au EB for heat sinking but it can't hurt...and plastic is great for bodies but of little use elsewhere, not stable enough under heat and shock.

[Paul's Slots]

Ok fellows, well I tried the endbell and the bearings on both sides, no backing plate and now have a 12 koford arm in it....its a very nice setup, very lite and nice power, now going to my eurosport chassis and a 40-28 wind.....its not a cobalt setup but I like the power and the complete motor will be under 100.00 ....my reasoning behind this is the motor is very lite and good power and tunable....and now is very fast and we will see how reliable?!?!?!... if it turns out I will be running these cars as a class...a poor man's eurosport.....a 150.00 dollar car that performs very well.....ok we will see, regards Paul

[SlotStox#53]

Sounds a very powerful hawk you've got there Paul ! Look forward to hearing how fast & reliable it is .

Good to see it in that chassis when you're done