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#51 TSR

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

Bob,

I already answered all these questions. The works only issued Stingers with CM460 and CM470 motors in green (and very few at that) because that is all what was left, and most were sold to REH un-boxed because there were no more boxes. This was confirmed in my interview with Ilmars Kersels, then Don Williams, and both have a memory like an elephant.
 

It was very easy for anyone to install a CM460 or CM470 motor in a Stinger since from the second issue, the extra bracket was supplied and the inner tray received a sticker advertising the presence of the extra parts under the tray.

No orange Stinger was ever sold with gray tires, only orange tires. But these tires were so easily available separately in gray, red, green and black over the counter.
 

Retailers routinely modified and updated unsold merchandise to move it. As for several other models, Stingers were updated by retailers for easier sale by installing the FT26D motors by the more crafty ones. Takes about 5-6 minutes for the changeover. 

After that, you are free to believe whatever suits your needs. You have seen a few, we have seen literally HUNDREDS.
 

Does the pinion on your car held by a setscrew, or is it a "push-on" pinion? The factory only used setscrew pinions on theirs, I have seen enough examples from mint to used up to be sure of that. That would be a good clue. The correct pinion is stock # 3211-1.


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#52 Gator Bob

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:38 PM

attachicon.gifcl184_5.jpg

 

And...
 

The genuine FT26-equipped RTR models that we have found (only two so far...) and seen in another collection (only one)  have a 4-40 recessed setscrew holding the pinion. I should have rotated the wheels to show it.

 

 

Does the pinion on your car held by a setscrew, or is it a "push-on" pinion? The factory only used setscrew pinions on theirs, I have seen enough examples from mint to used up to be sure of that. That would be a good clue. The correct pinion is stock # 3211-1.

"Elephant in the room"


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#53 Jaak

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:53 PM

Hi Don,
 
 
All the genuine Stinger wings have the rivets. But only the cars with the stripes and side shields are genuine RTR models. The others simply use a replacement body over an RTR chassis that lost its orange body.
 
Yes, the Stinger body was sold separately (without the wing as that was sold separately in either clear or painted, affixed to a card by the retaining pin to be used on the car itself) in either clear or painted form. Except that one could not purchase a spare body in the orange color, only in dark metallic red, medium metallic blue or medium metallic green. A similar red color exists, so it is possible that your example is genuine despite that the color does not appear to match the factory color, looks too purple on the picture, but that could be due to the picture's color balance.

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I have that same color Dark red Stinger body with wing etc, it needs a new chassis but have not been able to source one yet for a bit of a normal price.
Mine also has the striped on it.
A friend of mine (Zig aka Spurman) gave it to me as he had it spare and used the chassis on another car I think.
I was going to build a chassis for it but I will keep this as is until the day I can source a chassis for it.


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#54 Jaak

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:15 PM

Here you go.

The color on mine is slightly darker then the pictures show but not as purple-ish as the other one:

 

 

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#55 Superbird

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 04:07 PM

Hello Fellows!

 

Philippe, I always enjoy reading your detail about the Stinger production. I have never owned or even driven a real Stinger. My early race cars were low-buck items using the replacement bodies that came from the factory. They were plentiful then, maybe more so than the actual cars because it seemed like every track had the spares in a box of bodies but I NEVER saw a REAL one until my kids were youngsters! By then, of course the Stinger and spare bodies were long gone and rare. I wished I could find more.

 

A few years later I finally got my vacuum forming rig working and started making Stinger bodies from the black car shown in the "family portrait" below. That car body had a hard life and is now in far worse shape than it was when I used it to make a form for my rig. I made a few copies and then made a deal with Patto. I made a plug for him in return for a certain number of bodies. The clear bodies in the picture include a couple by me and a couple from Patto.

 

The yellow car was assembled last month using a BZ chassis and other spare parts to provide me a 36D retro machine. The red-orange body was a clear replacement hand-painted by Don Hines of Cobra for me. (Notice the clear roof panels.)  It was among my first scratch built cars at the time. The 16D angle winder chassis under it today is a much later design. The black one I painted myself (looks it!). She is a springie thingie 26D of the early Cobra style. She is still very fast and gets a lot of abuse (shows it!) as I continue to drive and repair it. The metal flake red car is clearly a painted replacement from the factory. It is a 16D powered springie thingie with hinged side pans added to the chassis. This car was always a handful to drive but always fast. It too gets a lot of hard driving to this day on my test track,.

 

I also had blue and green replacement bodies and another clear body that was done in Teal. (No idea why.) They are long gone. I plan to recreate them if I can assure myself of the paint sources.

 

Thanks for the memories!

Superbird

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#56 TSR

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 06:28 PM

Pete,

did Patto make these replica bodies in thicker material than his usual 0.010" stuff? The original were of course made from 25-thou plastic and were quite stiff! 


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#57 Gator Bob

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 06:45 PM

Cool Pete, that is quite the fleet!

Thanks to you .... I got some from Patto last century.

 

Dokk, Just a reminder... the car 26D car I posted was factory assembled. :D  Then 'one' fender cut by the original buyer who 'never put the car on the track ... like every other car that was in his Hoffman. You even bought one car from me that was 'in the box' straight out of that box. :good:

 

Just can't make this stuff up... "he said Stinger or was it Zinger"?  :laugh2:


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#58 TSR

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 06:47 PM

Bob,

whatever makes you happy... :)


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#59 Gator Bob

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 06:50 PM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iY-W7EA8uB0


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#60 TSR

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 08:06 PM

Ah yes, the loud-mouth two-bit singer hypocrite with worldly opinions on how we should behave but not her of course...

 

Back to the subject:

 

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The roadster... with the wrong cockpit!

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#61 Superbird

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:12 PM

Hi Fellows!

 

As you can see the CLASSIC Stinger is a touch stone for me. I think Patto and I both used .020" PET-G. I may have that wrong. I call it acetate which may also be wrong. It has been a few years since I shopped the plastic. Either way, yes the material is fairly thick for current bodies. I found a stock of .005 acetate which makes a very light body. Not strong but very light.

 

Neither Patto nor I can pull Lexan. Not that I didn't try. The tensile strength is part of the reason but it has more to do with heat loss. The lexan will get cold so fast my machine can't pull down fast enough. There are ways around that but for my purposes the .020 is just fine. I think (?) the original Stinger was even heavier. I plan to pull an .005" Stinger of these days when I get around to setting up the rig again.

 

Meanwhile it looks like the offering at the start of this thread can fill a void for serious restoration efforts.

 

BTW, I don't think much about authenticity. Back in the day I bought a few real CLASSIC items, Viper, Asp, etc. directly off the shelf and I still run them for fun from time to time. I lost the clear styrene click-boxes they came in over the years but they were direct from the factory. I know. I was there when I bought them. I have yet to pull them out without somebody explaining to me exactly which counterfeit parts were tossed together by somebody to re-create my phony cars. I don't try to argue with them. Restoration is a fun hobby all by itself and results in more cool cars available for people to enjoy.     

 

Take care,

Pete 


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#62 Jaak

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:59 AM

Still looking for a chassis for my 'original' Stinger body.
If any person has one for sale for a decent price I would be more then happy to take it of their hands.


Cheers,

Jaak


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#63 MattD

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 10:47 PM

s-l1600 (8).jpg

 

This showed up on Ebay today.   Looks like it is probably an old build.   The chassis is correct and the driver is on the right, not the left.

We have seen quite a few old builds that have the right side driver and fewer with the driver on the left.   LASCM has the mint kit with  driver on the left.   I am beginning to think those late issue kits may have come either way, depending on which  interior  they had on hand that day or which pile of interiors they  pulled one from.    We all know how  kits and production was at the end, so maybe these were packaged both ways.    My opinion.

 

 


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#64 Martin

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 12:43 AM

 

 

  I am beginning to think those late issue kits may have come either way, depending on which  interior  they had on hand that day or which pile of interiors they  pulled one from.    We all know how  kits and production was at the end, so maybe these were packaged both ways.    My opinion.

 

 

Sounds like a reasonable theory. So how many RHDs and how many LHDs have we seen? Start counting :)   
 


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#65 MattD

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 10:43 AM

Martin, I have seen two left side drivers, Philippes MIB kit and a built car that was on Worthpoint a few years ago.    I have seen 4-5 built cars with  left side drivers and all these cars were old builds, not fresh cars from the last 10 years or so.

 

As we all know from Philippes info abut the last days at Classic and other companies, there was a lot of  product put together that varied from day to day and by what parts were on hand.   The Stinger Roadster kits would sure fall into that gray area.

 

 

  Other than any original Classic loose bodies that may have been around, I am not sure there was a good repro body until Gene did one a couple years ago.   The bodies that came from Booth/Mac were too rough to ever have been confused with an original.


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#66 TSR

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 11:52 AM

Matt,
the interior on the red car you show is not from BZ, but from Auto Hobbies.

All the theories about right or left driver's position are hitting a serious iceberg, when one knows that very few of these Stinger Roadster kits were ever produced, that the driver's detail was molded WITH the body (sitting on front of the body mold, then separated and trimmed at the factory), and that in 1968, when Classic liquidated, there were some pre-trimmed bodies that were part of a large lot sold to REH.

When I "raided" REH in the early 1990s, I found a few of these bodies and only one correct interior, made of the same clear plastic as the body. ALL the Stinger Roadster cars I have seen around, appear to have a styrene cockpit (originally white if Auto Hobbies, black if from Russkit), most using the Auto Hobbies unit that was available separately and of which REH had a vast supply. Please not that Classic NEVER produced a car or a kit with a styrene cockpit detail.

REH had also purchased all the remaining chassis and again, I was able to purchase about 50 of them, and I sold them through the Electric Dreams business in the mid 1990s.
Do the math.

As far as the standard Stinger and to put an end to a discussion that began too long ago, there were three separate versions of the RTR model:
1/  FT36D powered, metallic orange body, orange tires. 
2/ Issued 6moths later, the same RTR with an added bracket to fit a FT26D motor, set loose under the display tray, with an added sticker on the display tray indicating so (so it would be normal for an orange Stinger to be found with a "26D" motor, but this would have been a customer installation, NOT factory). Orange tires.
3/ The last version of RTR comes with an FT26D only and in a single color: metallic green. Of these new in box, I have seen several tire colors, from green to gray to black to red. This likely due to dwindling supplies and by that time, Classic was in liquidation mode.

ALL 3 versions had factory stickers: stripes, numbers and side shields.

The body and wing kits were sold separately (as well as all the parts, chassis, wheels, tires) and never sported any stickers. Metallic red, blue and green. When the last Stingers with the FT26D motors were made, there were no more orange, red or blue bodies, only the slow selling green, and that what was used to produce the cars.

Again, REH got a large supply of these green bodies after purchasing the remaining inventories, and parts kits were assembled into cars by customers, as all the parts were available from an REH retailer listing. These cars are of course genuine, but not factory built.

Have fun!


Philippe de Lespinay


#67 MattD

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 10:05 PM

Philippe,  I think the regular Stinger details are pretty well established.    Not much of that is in doubt.    But...the roadster version and interior  are the only  questions I have.   You mention the Auto Hobbies interior being plentiful at REH.    Do you think maybe the bodies that came from REH, also might have come with the AH interior?    The time period would mean 20-30 year old cars now and that the few old build ups showing up  all having the same interior.

 

If only we knew more production details of so many of these very limited cars?   Did BZ spend 2 weeks building 2E's?   1 week?   A month?

 

Did Classic put together Roadster kits for 4 days?    3 weeks?   It would interesting to know the details of some of the final productions.


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#68 TSR

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 12:07 PM

Matt,
lots of speculation is necessary to make some sense of what happened in the last days of 1/24 scale commercial slot tracing in America. In Classic's case, I had the advantage of a long interview with several of the company's employees, from the general manager to the man of all trades, both with elephant-like memories, and while such interviews were done at different times, their recollections matched.

Very few kits of the Stinger Roadster were produced before Sam Bergman, the company's owner, pulled the plug.  In fact over the years, and so far, there is no news to contradict our knowledge, only ONE intact kit appears to have survived. There never were "different versions" of this kit, as the limited production may not even lasted more than a day... but, there were plenty of surviving parts, bodies and chassis, remaining and ending at REH, the bodies already trimmed, but somehow the cockpit details may not have made it for whatever reason.

It is almost certain that the vast majority of the existing examples of Stinger Roadsters were concocted from that lot of parts, and when REH marketed the parts (seen on their mid-1970s retailer listings), they likely supplied a vac formed cockpit with them, either the then abundant Auto Hobbies (an almost exact match of the Classic's, except for the driver being on the right side), or a Lancer or Russkit interior.
Cars built from the genuine kit would have the original clear plastic cockpit, painted by the customer. I have only seen a handful of these over the years.

Now, some collectors have shown to me, rather poorly painted Stinger Roadster bodies attempting to match one of the standard red, green or blue Classic colors, claiming them "genuine". To put an end to that urban legend, the Stinger Roadster was only and very briefly marketed as a complete kit with an unpainted body, and NEVER issued as a clear or painted body kit by Classic, but the "Singer II", that is a Stinger coupe with its wing molded as integral part of the body, was marketed on a card also used for tires, with the name "Stinger Roadster", which confused some collectors for a while.

Also out of Australia came (circa 1995) a plain-while box (with Classic markings) containing six of these "Stinger II" RTR cars in orange and blue colors, their chassis devoid of the wing raising wire, separated by corrugated inserts inside the box, but these never appeared in the USA or a Classic dealer sheet. How many were produced? Big mystery here.

As far as the BZ Chaparral 2E, it is almost certain that it never reached the actual store shelves. The number of examples that surfaced makes this plausible: samples were sent to the largst distributors in the (vain) hope of obtaining orders for them, but no distributors would want to risk any more investment in product that simply, stopped selling.
The samples were then disseminated over time, the ones found in the USA ending being raced, with their wing struts mostly hacked by their (obviously young) owners, the ones found in France being the result of a case of 12 cars sent to the European distributor in Paris. 
Seven of the known, complete genuine examples were found in France, six of them to a single person, and the only two remaining boxed examples have now returned to the USA.
Only ONE complete, and even boxed example has ever surfaced in the USA so far, while under a dozen or so of loose bodies or hacked bodies still attached to a chassis have surfaced, and this was several years ago with not a single example ever since.

This is what we know... and where the fairy tales begin.
 


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#69 MattD

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 02:58 PM

I think we have the same conclusion that maybe these roadsters with the AH interiors were sent out from REH like that.   Not from Classic, but from REH.  That would explain so many (5) cars having the same exact interior that is different from your mint kit interior.   The timeline would mean those cars are now old enough to have patina (overworked word) to look like something original from the late 60's.

 

One other comment about the BZ 2E's.    The boxed cars that Scott has do have price stickers slapped  haphazard on the side.   Those stickers look like the typical pricing gun stickers most retailers used in the late 60's.    That makes me think that they did appear on retailers shelves in some kind of limited quantity.  I don't think they would have had price stickers put on them at the BZ factory.    Notice they are marked $5.44 and the retail on the box is $13.99.    Maybe a blow out sale!

 

All we can do is speculate!!

 

 

 

bx box3.jpg

 

 

 


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#70 TSR

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 09:05 PM

 

That makes me think that they did appear on retailers shelves in some kind of limited quantity.

 

 

Matt, Scott has all three known box BZ Chaparrals. Two come from France and have no price stickers on their boxes. The third as you show, does. It is likely that the retailer got this from his distributor as a "close out", because if indeed there had been commercial production beyond a guestimated 50 to 100 samples, there would be far more of these cars found in ANY shape.
Any distributor who got one sample or more, would have liquidated them that way since the market was effectively kaput. Look at the retail price: $5.44. This car was supposed to retail for $13.95. That should be a pretty solid clue.

One of my long-time slot cars suppliers (and the person who provided us with the first serious evidence of the 2E production existence, a box of genuine unused wing struts) had his mom working at BZ, and she recalled the difficult assembly of these cars. Quotation from her to her son: "they were a pain to put together and very few were assembled".

The tiny number of cars that surfaced is your second clue.  250 million people at that time in the USA and only ONE boxed survivor, when a Classic Manta Ray can be found in minutes on plenty of places where they sell junk???

 


Philippe de Lespinay


#71 MattD

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 09:46 PM

The funny thing about the BZ 2E, is that any kid would have figured the wing struts would have been much better if they were all one piece and merely riveted to the underside  rear deck of the car with the actual strut up thru the body and wing connected with the fold over tab.    A kid could then pull the body screws and remove the body without damaging the struts.   


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#72 TSR

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Posted 26 February 2020 - 09:59 PM

Matt,
it was truly stupid engineering. First, choosing a body that was too short for the chassis' wheelbase, forcing to enlarge the front wheel well opening. Then anchoring the struts with the rear wheel bearings. Then locking the struts by gluing the wing's top over their bent tabs... yes, really stupid, since the ONLY way to take the body off was to remove the entire rear axle from the chassis, including the nylon wheel bearings, and to do that you needed a very grabby pair of specially ground pliers as the brass brace holding the struts made it difficult to pry them off.
Hence it never happened, and the kids who got one from whatever source simply cut the struts, or pulled the wing off in frustration, often breaking the retaining tabs.

The whole time to assemble one of these things would have cost more in time spent than any profit from wholesale... yes, very smart move indeed.


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#73 Dennis M

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 07:46 PM

I just got my Stinger & im in love. :D


Dennis C. Mikelvich

#74 TSR

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Posted 31 August 2022 - 03:32 PM

Well Dennis, where are the pictures? :)


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#75 Martin

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Posted 31 August 2022 - 08:11 PM

I think they still need a little private time. :heart:

 

While we are waiting I can show off my restoration. It was missing the wing, wing hinge and weight.

I made an aluminum wing hinge from sheet and a weight from lead also a linkage wire. Found hollow rivets at a craft store.

Mixed up a color to replicate the anodizing.The wing was cut from another body where someone had glued the wing to fix in place.

Here are the results. I like this car too LIKE Dotty LIKE.

 

Found the link to the my full restoration post and to give a shout out to help from friends.

Thanks Gene/Jairus for your help on this.

 

http://slotblog.net/...nger-revisited/

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