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The future... of collecting


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#1 Mbloes

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:05 PM

In another thread, Phillipe wrote:
 

Can't do that, most would die, then there is no more slot car racing...  :D

 
On a semi-serious note, this doesn't concern me so much from a racing standpoint, but what does it do to collecting?  (BTW I don't collect, so this question is purely academic). What happens, for example, when there is no-one left who knows what a Mura B can is or a Steube arm is?
 
I just get the feeling that we are a relatively small group who operate somewhat outside the mainstream hobby realm. I'm 56 years old and I know a lot of the collectors must be much older (sorry), so I'm wondering who is going to be left to appreciate the $2,000-$5,000 slot car in the future.
 
I guess what I'm really saying is, I see vintage arms/motors go for hundreds and complete cars go for thousands - will these items, which can be somewhat esoteric, appreciate (or even "hold their value") when our current generation is no longer here to appreciate (and, of course, purchase) them.
Mike Bloes




#2 John Streisguth

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

Somebody, somewhere, at some time, will think slot cars are an interesting historical toy. Sounds like an episode of "American Pickers" in about 20 years.   :D


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#3 Rick

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:12 PM

I am of the same opinion, NOW is the time to unload it all. When our generation is gone, there will be zero market for the items and even less interest...

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#4 Cheater

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:21 PM

As more information becomes available about the truly great stuff that has been created in the slot racing hobby, the universe of collectors will expand, not contract, as the people who were involved at the time pass away.

For just one example, it would be instructive for you to study the value of pottery created by the self-proclaimed "Mad Porter of Biloxi": George E. Ohr.
 
For many years and for several reasons, no one knew anything about Ohr and his work. Now the best Ohr pots command enormous figures at auction and the main reason is that there is a lot of info out there about Ohr now, showing how he pushed the boundaries of pottery and pottery design.
 
When all the slot magazine and newspapers disappeared in the early '70s, slot cars entered a dark age. Fortunately, the internet came along to allow slot cars to achieve far greater visibility and to be a place where the history of the hobby is being publiczed and preserved.
 
So long as people know about the finest creations of the talented craftsmen in slot cars, collectors for those items will always exist.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#5 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:21 PM

That is what I did and use $ for current interests and family type things. Enjoyed collecting them, but enjoying the $ more now.


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#6 Tim Neja

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:24 PM

You've hit it on the head Rick.  Once our generation is gone--- there will be NO ONE left to appreciate the slot car history.  It will be like the Model A's and T's --these cars are CHEAPER now then they once were--for that very same reason. It was MY dad's generation that remembered these cars fondly---my generation would rather "hot rod" them!! So the vintage cars are losing value as their losing their generation of collectors! 

I'll be selling my Hot Rods over the next 5 years for the same reason.  The'll be starting down the evolutionary scale soon. :)


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#7 Cheater

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:28 PM

Tim,

That's not what I am seeing in the collector car hobby.

Model Ts and As are not where the action is. Try buying a Pierce Great Arrow or a pre-'15 Packard. Or any open CCCA Full Classic.

In any collecting arena, the best of the best rarely falls in value. And as much as I love Ts and As, they simply don't represent the best of the best.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#8 Cheater

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:22 PM

One more point, Tim.

Are you familiar with The Rodder's Journal?

If so, do you foresee the value of the kinds of cars they feature and publicize (i.e. ones of style, craftsmanship, and provenance) will diminish in the coming decades?

 

I would agree that the typical high schooler's poorly-running and poorly-constructed hot rod will not hold its value. Collectors in any field go for quality and I honestly feel it will always be collected and sought after. That's the way I seeing it working across the board.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#9 Mbloes

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:25 PM

I hate to be pessimistic but Rick kind of made my point in one sentence.
 
Greg, in a narrow sense I think you are correct - I think that the five or ten prototypical collectors cars like the Cox Iso Chaparral 2e will ALWAYS have appeal. But I think these are the very few items that transcend the slot car world and have a larger appeal to other types of hobby collectors which, in turn, keeps the value up.
 
But what about the Zimmerman arms, the pink cans, the Nutley drop arms, or the Associated front wheels? This stuff can go for crazy prices now but I think that it is only our generation that is bidding this stuff up. Will anybody pay hundreds for a card of Associated wheels in 20 years? I don't know...
Mike Bloes

#10 Rick

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:54 PM

Greg, you are an optimistic romantic to say the least. As an example, look at what Chevelles bring today vs ten-fifteen years ago. The only muscle cars that still command huge numbers are the Hemi cars, the rest came, peaked, and went. The War Babies and Boomers are falling off the radar. The comparison between slot cars and rare old automobiles is apples and oranges, they still make automobiles today and will continue and that's part of a huge "industry history", slot cars has a very small foot print in history.
 
I am not trying to be a gloom and doomer, just giving my opinion in what makes good bidness sense...  :)

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#11 Cheater

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:14 PM

Mike,
 
No, the mass-produced stuff won't hold its value... primarily because it was mass-produced.
 
As I have claimed on this forum several times before, collectible values are all about supply and demand. If the demand drops, the question then becomes one of supply.
 
There are a lot of Associated front wheels, Classic Manta Rays, or Nutley drop arms (mass-produced, remember), but there aren't too many Lee Gilbert Eurosports, Adams & Sons Quad Mk IIs, or Dave Bloom painted bodies. There are a lot of Cox Chaparrals, but how many are pristine, unbuilt kits in unmarked boxes?
 
If the question is "will the eventual demise of the guys who lived through the '60s lead to diminished values on mass-produced slot car items", I would say yes.

If the question is "will collectors willing to pay strongly for the crème de la crème of slot racing history completely disappear", I would say no.

The $2,000-5,000 slot car you referenced in your initial post will always be with us and may in fact cost even more.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#12 Cheater

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:25 PM

Rick,

Collectibles are collectibles, no matter what they are. Your argument has the odor of that old claim that slot racing isn't like any other hobby...

Your muscle car example is flawed in that their prices were run up and manipulated and as such, that situation proves nothing. Look at the overall hobby, top to bottom. I don't deny that there is an age-based Bell Curve of focus and interest that moves through the old car hobby, but the cars worth collecting rarely have lost value over time. I believe the same will apply to slot cars, as it does in just about every other collecting arena I observe.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#13 James Wendel

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:15 PM

It seems clear from both sides of the argument, that the number of people interested in collecting antique slot-cars is going to diminish in the near future.  That is the demand portion of the "Price vs Supply & Demand" equation.  

 

You can figure out what happens to price.  


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#14 Cheater

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:24 PM

I don't disagree.

I think most slot car collectors don't have a conception of how much product was produced in such a short period of time. That's why 50+ years later a lot of it is still coming out of the woodwork.

But the good stuff that collectors want is in short supply and it would take a crash of demand down to zero to have much effect there.

Again, are we referring to the common stuff or the rare stuff?

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#15 Mbloes

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:49 PM

Again, are we referring to the common stuff or the rare stuff?

 
The interesting thing, though, is that the "rare" examples that you gave, such as a Lee Gilbert car, would REALLY have to have their provenance documented. Whereas, an unbuilt, still blisterpacked kit from the '60s - while still mass-produced - is pretty easily verifiable from both the slothead's and broader collector's point of view.
 
For example, I have the Mossetti F1 car in the pic below. It's probably 20 years old. This car I know is "rare" - there were only 25 manufactured and they were all numbered (mine is 13). I built it. It's a nice build but I never raced it or anything (maybe that's good!). Is it valuable to anybody? Maybe just to Ernie and myself.

m13.jpg
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#16 TSR

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

When my first book on the subject was issued in 1998, the demand for vintage production slot cars soared and the prices exploded. They tapered some, but are still high today. Only the common items went down.

The new book, that will reveal so much that is still unknown by most, will create a new demand and I expect prices to once again, explode.

The reasons are multiple of course but the argument that the "old guys are dying and no one will care after they pass away" does not hold water.

If indeed, the price of Ford Model T or A collapsed is not because the older collectors died off, it is simply because there are lots of them around and they are and always were boring appliances to begin with. Have you ever driven a T? What a PAIN.

Compare that to driving a Packard inline-eight, and you will grasp that age has no bearing here. New, young collectors are the ones buying these expensive cars today, not old coots.

The only collectibles that will never be worth much at the end of the day are objects DESIGNED to be collectible. Those will always fail to return the investment, regardless of what they are.

Also there are production or manufacturing times that will always determine value: the rather ugly, door-stop shaped "wing" slot cars, despite their incredible performance and cost today, will never be worth anything after they become obsolete, but old pro-racing cars from the 1960s that had charisma and beauty have now come from being virtually worthless 20 years ago to being quite valuable today, if real and in good condition.

In the same manner, production kits or RTR cars that are beautiful do bring more and more, even if common, and the rare ones are getting close to the records of early 2000 when a few collectors were battling for the few surfacing here and there. But to be valuable, they have to be in the exact condition they left the factory. Assemble a kit, and its value plunges 90% or more.
 
Also watch the depressed prices of the 1/32 scale models made in China by the various slot car companies from about 1995: one can hardly get the price paid for when they were new. Will they ever have any value? Likely none. Too many, simply too many. The few that may retain some value are, of course, models of OLD, CLASSIC racing cars.

Modern cars, including racing cars, are appliances, and few still care. The new generations of collectors do not care either, but see them bidding like mad on the OLD cars, art, toys, and even real estate. Seen the prices of classic and racing motorcycles lately?
 
The rare, the more exotic, the more aesthetically pleasant, the higher the price, and for a long, long time to come. Even in these times of world economic disaster (and it is only the beginning, brace yourselves) there are more wealthy people than ever interested in collecting those rare objects that they desire.

True vintage slot cars of the classic era will always find enthusiasts, because they are very attractive and odd, and very little of the Chinese stuff or the 1975-to-now commercial raceway cars will ever qualify to be nice enough for those more sophisticated collectors to acquire.
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#17 Mbloes

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:22 PM

So the answer is... buy a bunch of stuff before your next book comes out?!? Would that be considered insider trading?
Mike Bloes

#18 Cheater

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:25 PM

Mike,

Put that Mossetti car on eBay at no reserve and see what bids it brings... LOL!

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#19 Mbloes

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:28 PM

Ha-ha, like I said, it's valuable... to me!
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#20 Gator Bob

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:34 PM

Mike... are you saying that what Dokk posted was 'self-serving"?
 
Funny :umnik2: ... nobody on here offered 'Dick' for this stuff.
=================
 
Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:27 PM

Go to : http://s1207.photobu...208246965807533
Posted Image
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#21 havlicek

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:34 PM

The very same argument could be made about all kinds of collectibles.  

Philippe and Greg have touched on something, and that is... aside from momentary interest, there is the value people rightfully put on "the best". I've said it before, but it bears repeating that anyone with a fine eye (not at all necessarily a slot enthusiast) would be able to appreciate a beautiful slot car... or even just a slot car motor.  

The Mosetti pictured above is a thing of beauty/art, symmetry, and significant engineering. Will it be worth more someday to collectors?... I have no idea, but they will certainly be able to appreciate what it represents, so maybe.
 
-john
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#22 TSR

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:22 PM

So the answer is... buy a bunch of stuff before your next book comes out?!? Would that be considered insider trading?

 

Mike, in some ways, yes. However, I never told you so, especially what to buy and what NOT to buy...
 

 

Mike... are you saying that what Dokk posted was "self-serving"?

 

I don't know how it would be since I do not have any old slot cars for sale... I do not own any save for a couple with signatures of their full-size examples' drivers. I will be selling books though.

 

Funny :umnik2: ... nobody on here offered 'Dick' for this stuff.

 

What "stuff"? 


Philippe de Lespinay


#23 macman

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:56 PM

Mass produced... Any one remember the beanie baby craze... Greg & Doc P know their stuff. Ferraris are collectible... Most BMWs aren't...
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#24 Gator Bob

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:59 PM

What "stuff"?

 

Go to : http://s1207.photobu...208246965807533


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#25 TSR

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:34 PM

Bob,
As said before, wing cars (virtually all of them of which body looks like a door stop) have little and likely will never have collectible value, regardless of who built them. They simply are not an attractive item, one that someone would want to place inside a display showcase inside one's home. It is that simple.
This is also one of the reasons why controllers have such low value on the market.
Hence, this is likely why you had no offers on Bob Cotton's old stuff, it is simply not "classic" enough for collectors, young or older.
Now if you had EARLIER, early 1970s Bob Cotton cars, such as the ones he used at Nutley, of his Coca Cola race car, THEN you would have something marketable...
Unfortunately, wing cars simply do not interest most collectors, and will likely never do so. Fact of life.

Philippe de Lespinay






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