53 replies to this topic

[Pablo]

My newest Cukras just received a bid of $1 on Ebay !

Cool stuff will always be in demand. Slot cars will never die.

[SlotStox#53]

Wow!! Collecting certainly isn't dead!

[TSR]

Yes, really...

 

One wonders...

 

Not EVERYTHING is collectible, as proven many times.

But the desirable stuff keeps its nose above water, it looks like.

[Rick]

Zackly, PdL! You have some chooch going to give you $3K plus for that and $6K plus for a Batmobile, one should grab it and run (NOW) Too bad there is no way to check of the age of these buyers...

If it is so lucrative, why did you bail out on the market a few years ago?...

[Cheater]

It's called "cashing out".

[TSR]

If it is so lucrative, why did you bail out on the market a few years ago?...

 

Simply put, because my personal collecting interests, changed. I am invested in different collectibles today, that I enjoy more.

However I DO have a knowledge of what is collectible and what is not, what was and is no longer, and with a bit of a crystal ball, what WILL be.

And yes, my collecting slot cars and slot car artifacts until 2006, when I sold out, was very lucrative, but it certainly was not the point to me, the enjoyment was the point.

[Phil Hackett]

...and cash is King....

[Mbloes]

I think the excellent summary points from this thread are:

 

 

"If the question is "will the eventual demise of the guys who lived through the '60s lead to diminished values on mass-produced slot car items", I would say yes.

If the question is "will collectors willing to pay strongly for the crème de la crème of slot racing history completely disappear", I would say no."

 

 

and

 

 

"The only collectibles that will never be worth much at the end of the day are objects DESIGNED to be collectible."

[TSR]

"If the question is "will the eventual demise of the guys who lived through the '60s lead to diminished values on mass-produced slot car items", I would say yes.

 

Mike,

history is already proving you wrong on that one... 

The collectors who are paying top dollar today for those items are YOUNG and most were not even born when those items were in production.

[endbelldrive]

Philippe, I'm also running into a new younger generation of collectors who are interested in the post-war up to about 1969 era.  They're influencing and driving the art market too.

[TSR]

True, and those new collectors are numerous, causing prices to go up, not down. The wealthier the society (and despite all what often lunatic and ideology-driven governments of so-called "advanced nations" have been trying to destroy economies, the more they try, the more smart individuals find a better way to get around the obstacles), the greater the market, but the number of collectible objects is finite. There are only so many Van Goghs, so many Monets... and so many Monogram Lotus 38 kits MIB. Hence, prices go UP, no down. Time to time when things go really bad economically, there is a price fall, but it is generally followed by a strong rise, and that has been true since people began collecting things, as far back as the 4th century BC!

When a PRODUCTION object is excessively rare, the price goes through the roof, as we have recently seen on that BZ Chaparral 2E slot car in used condition, of which box is the only example known to exist.

Yes, that certainly slowed down the dozens who bid on it, most bids not even reflected because they were too low.

 

But in slot cars as well as most other collecting disciplines, KNOWLEDGE and especially, lack of it, conducts to comments that have little to do with reality.

This applies to the type and kind of collectibles, as well as perception of what is collectible or not, or who are the collectors and how old they are.

In today's slot car world, a vast majority of current racers does not have a clue of what was produced in the classic era, so has no real knowledge on the subject.

[SlotStox#53]

 

Mike,

history is already proving you wrong on that one... 

The collectors who are paying top dollar today for those items are YOUNG and most were not even born when those items were in production.

Paying well for Team Nutley drop arms and Nutley Pans on epay... plus other mass produced parts as I was born late 70's in the UK where practically none of the good stuff was sold

[TSR]

Paul, you are proving the point alright...

Sorry if the LASCM "steals" some of those drop arms, we need it to complete a few Emott chassis that were missing bits, and are being expertly restored by Steve Okeefe, the absolute master of saving chassis that would otherwise been... binned.

 

Talking about pro-racing cars and their collectible values, it seems to me that the last that are truly valuable to the casual collector, even the one not versed in the hobby itself, are the ones from the Classic Era, where one could recognize the body as a reduction of a real, known car, be it a Lola, McLaren, Ferrari... and not some door-stop bombarded with a "Matra" or "Corvette" name, that even their mother would not recognize. Another factor and one ultimately the most important would be the car's documented history and provenance. Most of the survivors with such history are just that, survivors, and what has generally survived is a half-destroyed, rotted, corroded chassis, like in this case:

 

 

Believe it or not, Tony P, Bob Emott and I NEARLY binned that ugly thing. At the last second, I chose to keep it, even if for the use of some of its parts.

What Bob, Tony and I did not know (or did not remember), is that this chassis was indeed what remained from a quite-famous car in its day, one that is an integral and important part of the pro-racing history of the hobby:

 

 

Steve Okeefe gave it a new life, repairing the damage, removing the crud and getting it ready to accept a correct motor, wheels, tires and a replica body:

 

 

I do not know too many who can do this kind of work without losing the original's identity by overdoing a restoration. Steve does it to my satisfaction, and I am very, very picky regarding originality.

This will receive a period Elfin body 9a real one, not a repro), painted exactly as Dave Bloom would have done it for PVA.

All the parts used on the restoration will be correct, authentic parts that PVA would have used on the car.

Such cars, documented survivors, will be the ones commanding high values, but in this case, it is a museum piece and will likely not be for sale in my lifetime.

 

[Phil Hackett]

True, and those new collectors are numerous, causing prices to go up, not down. The wealthier the society (and despite all what often lunatic and ideology-driven governments of so-called "advanced nations" have been trying to destroy economies, the more they try, the more smart individuals find a better way to get around the obstacles), the greater the market, but the number of collectible objects is finite. There are only so many Van Goghs, so many Monets... and so many Monogram Lotus 38 kits MIB. Hence, prices go UP, no down. Time to time when things go really bad economically, there is a price fall, but it is generally followed by a strong rise, and that has been true since people began collecting things, as far back as the 4th century BC!

When a PRODUCTION object is excessively rare, the price goes through the roof, as we have recently seen on that BZ Chaparral 2E slot car in used condition, of which box is the only example known to exist.

Yes, that certainly slowed down the dozens who bid on it, most bids not even reflected because they were too low.

 

But in slot cars as well as most other collecting disciplines, KNOWLEDGE and especially, lack of it, conducts to comments that have little to do with reality.

This applies to the type and kind of collectibles, as well as perception of what is collectible or not, or who are the collectors and how old they are.

In today's slot car world, a vast majority of current racers does not have a clue of what was produced in the classic era, so has no real knowledge on the subject.

 

So those 1950s baseball cards I have are increasing in value? Same with the numerous "baby boomer" toys I have in a closet? I might have my retirement set.....    

[TSR]

Phil,

Baseball cards that are valuable are generally a lot older than you are. The market there is  and has not been stable for many years because there are simply too many "collectible" cards.

Originally, these cards were never meant to be anything but a way for children to keep interested in the game. As soon as someone figured out that there was money to be made of it, the scheme collapsed as millions of cards were printed.

 

Worse today are artificial collectibles, like in ceramics, the Hummel stuff, that if you have any, you might want to break to collect your insurance on them, the so-called "Beany Babies" which were one of the biggest cons perpetrated on little girls since the chastity belts of the middle ages, or special editions of the Chrysler Cordoba with "Corinthian leather" interior. Ole Shelby was king of such special editions in the past 30 years, made a fortune from Mustangs plastered with stickers that weren't even weatherproof. Only idiots fall for these cons, but there are plenty of them out there.
 

See, Steiff plush, the old ones, the "teddy bear" toys made by Margaret Steiff in Austria in 1910, HAVE value today, because they are not only atteactive but were never designed to be anything but toys. Do you think that Steiff collectors, that are in the hundreds of thousands worldwide and paying up to $50K for rare examples, are 108-year old ladies?
 

There are a few baseball cards that are worth now, over one MILLION dollars. It is likely that these values will remain, even when, as Captain Picard announced in an episode of Star Trek, the new Generation, TV and baseball died in 2040.

Personally, I'd go for that!

[Steve Okeefe]

In case anyone is interested in building one (or just learning more about it), I've posted up the drawing here.

[SlotStox#53]

Very nice restored chassis PdL .

 

 

Collecting slot car parts from the day is far from dead , or at least to me!

 

Epay is really good for collecting but  more important for me being able to gather new old stock parts and other items to build up plenty of new cars but to old original designs and using those collected parts (watching Rick and Pablo with their builds and also Steve building and renovating pro cars has truly inspired me!!!)

 

So rest assured that although the multi $$$$$ in box items are way out of my league I will at least be continuing to look and go for the mass prduced parts from the golden slot car age Plus my 4 year old girl (who loves her little HO slot car racetrack and race cars in general    ) will learn how to race, build and appreciate the whole slot car world

 

 

Just a few items recently aquired... mass produced... but still collectable...

 

 

 

[TSR]

Paul,

Collecting pro stuff is a labor of love, and the rewards may never be monetary (and then again, who knows...) but purely emotional. We live and breathe that stuff, damn all the critics! 

[SlotStox#53]

Paul,

Collecting pro stuff is a labor of love, and the rewards may never be monetary (and then again, who knows...) but purely emotional. We live and breathe that stuff, damn all the critics! 

definitely emotional here ... living and breathing it   Will leave the lucrative rewards to my Dad in the UK and his tinplate clock work trains ..

[Paul Kovich]

Interesting, in most areas of collecting restoration destroys value not enhances it. Is it a PVA chassis or a Steve Okeefe chassis now ?? 

[Mark H]

a little off topic but what i always wonder with collectons is what happens when some old geezer croaks before selling anything? does the unintersted son/daughter family member just toss everything? i watch american pickers and just know most of those old guys hoards are going straight to the scraper.

 

im young and like anything old. most people think im wierd or a hipster becasue of it.

[Gator Bob]

 golden

Nutley.jpg

 

Tubing.jpg

 

Rails.jpg

 

 

So ..  Homeboy ... It was you doing the bidding.  

[endbelldrive]

a little off topic but what i always wonder with collectons is what happens when some old geezer croaks before selling anything? does the unintersted son/daughter family member just toss everything? i watch american pickers and just know most of those old guys hoards are going straight to the scraper.

 

im young and like anything old. most people think im wierd or a hipster becasue of it.

Almost every heir to "grand dad's collection" thinks they have something valuable whether they know anything about it or not thanks to shows like Antiques Roadshow etc.  Occasionally something like an original 19th Century New England card table shows up at a garage sale.  You can't go wrong being weird or hip when it comes to collecting!

[raisin27]

Paul, you are proving the point alright...

Sorry if the LASCM "steals" some of those drop arms, we need it to complete a few Emott chassis that were missing bits, and are being expertly restored by Steve Okeefe, the absolute master of saving chassis that would otherwise been... binned.

 

Talking about pro-racing cars and their collectible values, it seems to me that the last that are truly valuable to the casual collector, even the one not versed in the hobby itself, are the ones from the Classic Era, where one could recognize the body as a reduction of a real, known car, be it a Lola, McLaren, Ferrari... and not some door-stop bombarded with a "Matra" or "Corvette" name, that even their mother would not recognize. Another factor and one ultimately the most important would be the car's documented history and provenance. Most of the survivors with such history are just that, survivors, and what has generally survived is a half-destroyed, rotted, corroded chassis, like in this case:

 

pva-worldrecord-69-1_1.jpg

 

Believe it or not, Tony P, Bob Emott and I NEARLY binned that ugly thing. At the last second, I chose to keep it, even if for the use of some of its parts.

What Bob, Tony and I did not know (or did not remember), is that this chassis was indeed what remained from a quite-famous car in its day, one that is an integral and important part of the pro-racing history of the hobby:

 

pva-worldrecord-69_7.jpg

 

Steve Okeefe gave it a new life, repairing the damage, removing the crud and getting it ready to accept a correct motor, wheels, tires and a replica body:

 

pva-worldrecord-69_6.jpg

 

I do not know too many who can do this kind of work without losing the original's identity by overdoing a restoration. Steve does it to my satisfaction, and I am very, very picky regarding originality.

This will receive a period Elfin body 9a real one, not a repro), painted exactly as Dave Bloom would have done it for PVA.

All the parts used on the restoration will be correct, authentic parts that PVA would have used on the car.

Such cars, documented survivors, will be the ones commanding high values, but in this case, it is a museum piece and will likely not be for sale in my lifetime.

 

An interesting thread to read with some good points being made.

 

I must agree that the restoration work done on this piece was first rate, however I have always been one that feels an item is only original once. To me the collector value is higher in a less pristine but untouched original condition. Much as with a rare coin, just cleaning it can reduce the value 50%. When I look at an unrestored object of any kind I feel I am looking at the real thing, the actual piece that  PVA touched, set up and raced. When I look at the restored version I see a replica using some of the original parts (perhaps in this case most of the original parts), not the original chassis.

 

Perhaps I can better explain my thoughts using the example of the Rosa Parks bus currently in Dearborn Mich. at the  Henry Ford Museum (of which I am a member). The actual bus that Rosa Parks refused to step to the back of was discovered in very poor condition sitting in a field and being used as a chicken coup. It was purchased by the Museum and underwent an extensive restoration. GMC donated a complete drivetrain, all new body panels, were installed, new glass, seats, everything painted to perfection. The result is a beautiful bus that looks like the the original did back in Alabama, however I cant look at it and think to myself this is the actual bus. Rosa Parks never sat on any of those seats, or looked out any of those windows. She never touched any of that paint or read any of those ads.

 

Sometimes an artifact is too far gone and the best thing would be to restore it as with the bus, but the chassis seems to be be all there and in reasonable condition to me.

 

Just one mans opinion.

 

I do however agree 100% that you cannot produce an item as a  collectable.

 

Raisin

[Steve Okeefe]

Raisin,

 

My wife's parents were both coin collectors, so I can comfirm you are right about a collectible coin's value being degraded by cleaning.

 

On the other hand, as the guy who cleaned and restored that PvA chassis I can assure you that as a historical artifact it was in dire need of rescue from the insidious and deleterious effects of corrosion.  Cleaning and restoring increased its value as a historical artifact.

 

Coins and cars are different.  Rare coins are valuable because they have successfully passed through history; there were many and now there are few.  The PvA chassis (and the Rosa Parks bus, the Hindenburg, the Titanic and the Enola Gay among other similar things) are the physical objects that played a role in historical events (large or small); there was, is and will ever only be one of them.