98 replies to this topic

[SlotStox#53]

Very nice rewind Steve, what epoxy did you use to goop up the arm?

[SlotStox#53]

Steve  really like the solder/screw tabs you have on the end of the lead wires , make a really professional finish

[Steve Okeefe]

Paul E.,

 

The epoxy I used on the armature is something called "Devcon 2-ton".  It's fairly common stuff available at most hardware stores (I get mine at "ACE" hardware).  It's working time is about 30 minutes, and full cure is about 6-8 hours.  You can accelerate the curing process by placing the coated arm (com end up!) in a warm (200 degrees or less) oven for about 30 - 45 minutes.  DO NOT make the mistake of buying or using "5 minute" epoxy!

 

Although it's only rated for 200 degrees F., that "should" be enough for R&C era winds.  The hardware store epoxy we used in 1966 was no better.

 

This illustrates a point I've been trying to make; these R&C cars are "old school" builds using "old school" parts.  It is perfectly acceptable, and even appropriate, to use "old school" materials as well.  The commutator tabs on my winds for example are soldered with 95-5 (who remembers that?) not 60-40.  In fact it's the same spool of 95-5 I used in 1966...

 

The solder/screw tabs are literally the result of my frustration over the fact that no matter how I did it, clamping down the soft lead wire with those braid screws looked awful.  I tried 4 or 5 different ways and none of them looked any good to me.

 

My solution was to adapt something called a "Ground Lug" (which look like this):

 

 

They're about .016" thick made of tinned hard copper.  I cut off the large end, drill a small hole (for the lead wire) near the cut off end, and attach to the braid screw through the existing hole.  Problem solved! 

[Pablo]

I'll second that !  Super SANO !!!       Very bitchen.

[havlicek]

Great work Steve!  I can (definitely) appreciate such a nice job getting 65 turns of #29 on those Mabuchi stacks (WITH the darned fiber stack insulators)  Those magnets don't look familar, what are they and how did your air-gap work out?

 

-john

 

PS, the temp rating on the 2-ton stuff is (if anything) on the conservative side.  I've baked the stuff at that temp at least and it seems to come out glassy and hard.  I'd be shocked if it weren't MORE than good for the 65/29.

[dc-65x]

Great looking car Steve!

 

As I sat here looking at your pictures I started thinking what a great thing these R&C cars can be. They are recreations of real Pro cars that raced for a National Championship. They were featured in a National publication read by thousands. When setup right they are great fun to drive and definitely great fun to build.

 

Best of all, they are "attainable" today. Look at the parts used in your wonderful car. They are all common items available today on eBay and lot of things are available from EJ's Hobbies and Professor Motor.

 

Common parts expertly crafted into a car that most likely would have been competitive at that first R&C race in 1966.

 

I love it!

[Steve Okeefe]

John,

 

The magnets are made by Igarashi, and were removed from a Strombecker Hemi.

 

They are .175" thick and give me a "stock" (un-shimmed) air gap of .550".  The stock Mabuchi armature has a .510" stack diameter, so the magnet gap is about. 020".

 

The rumor is that Hemi magnets are more powerful than stock Mabuchi magnets.

[Pablo]

How do Hemi mags compare to modern ceramic race magnets ?

[SlotStox#53]

Cool that there's still a hardware store brand epoxy that's in keeping with what was used originally ,definitely keeping it real or "Korrect" & thanks John for the temp advice on the Devcon, sounds like it should do the mild winds especially the Korrect '66 winds from this series

[havlicek]

 

 

The rumor is that Hemi magnets are more powerful than stock Mabuchi magnets.

 

I have heard that from several people over the years Steve, but have never measured the ones I've had.  I think it was Roger at MidAmerica that sold the cans with the magnets, and I've made some nice motors with them.

 

 

 

How do Hemi mags compare to modern ceramic race magnets ?

 

I'm not Steve Pablo...but I did stay in a Holiday Inn  None of those period magnets are in the same ballpark as modern top-shelf ceramics...or even "regular" ceramics you find in D motors or something like the ceramic-version Hawk.

 

-john

[Steve Okeefe]

Thanks, Rick!

 

One of the things I like most about building these R&C cars is that I can build a conservate re-creation of what was then state-of-the-art, or I can innovate new ideas within the R&C rules (which specifically allowed such things).

 

I don't like rules that restrict innovation, and especially I don't like rules that seek to make things fair by requiring them to be "equal".  The unvarnished truth is that "equal" is an illusion.

 

Pablo,

 

What John said!  Modern ceramic magnets are just better on average than any vintage magnets - including Arcos.  Otherwise we would still be using Arco spec magnets made by some other company, in the same fashion that we are still using Russkit style controllers made by Parma.

 

This is not to say one cannot find a particularly good set of Arcos to compare to a particularly bad set of modern magnets, right?

 

Or did I just prove that "equal" is an illusion?

 

[Hworth08]

As far as strength the Hemi or French mags were about half of todays. But, motors were different then. The stack had quite a bit more iron. Timing was no more than 15 degrees and usually less. The cans were thin but more enclosed.

 

Builders today seldom choose the strongest magnets. Stronger magnets slow RPM and can have too much brakes. Cars handle so well today that just a blip is needed somewhere in a four to six foot range in front of a turn. In 1966 you actually needed to out brake a car to pass. In '66 darn near  no torque was desired as you generally feathered the controller to keep a car from spinning out. Today it's just lift and punch and balance the grip so the rear axle is parallel to the guide reducing guide friction and speed. But giving up torque gives up brakes. 

 

Gearing lower added brakes and torque. Gearing higher made easy to drive speed, on the straight. And more heat that the endbell could not stand back then.

 

Racing was a lot different back then. It's no easier to win today as all racers have modern advances but the cars of old were  hard to win with. Driving today isn't easy because the speeds are greater and you about have to slam the car around. The old cars required finesse and a motor that allowed such. 

[SlotStox#53]

Thanks for the informative description of the differences between these R&C cars ,other cars in this era and the modern cars! Poles apart but just as much fun either end of the spectrum

Just as different between real cars when you had to double the clutch and the modern sports cars with paddle F1 shift !

Only other thing that's similar is driving the plastic 1/32 cars in race conditions with no magnet on a wooden routed track just as much throttle feathering and being patient waiting to bury the throttle!

Too early and its goodbye with a visit to the fence, just right a little opposite lock and you live to see yourself on the lead lap and possible victory, they may or may not cut it on a king track but driving on the edge with measured driving is soooo much fun

[havlicek]

 

One of the things I like most about building these R&C cars is that I can build a conservate re-creation of what was then state-of-the-art, or I can innovate new ideas within the R&C rules (which specifically allowed such things).

 

I don't like rules that restrict innovation, and especially I don't like rules that seek to make things fair by requiring them to be "equal".  The unvarnished truth is that "equal" is an illusion.

 

...and that right there is what racing should be about!  Can I get an AMEN!?  

 

-john

[SlotStox#53]

 
...and that right there is what racing should be about!  Can I get an AMEN!?  
 
-john

AMEN! !!

[Pablo]

Thanks for the magnet info. <G>

[dc-65x]

.......Racing was a lot different back then...........Driving today isn't easy because the speeds are greater and you about have to slam the car around. The old cars required finesse and a motor that allowed such.

 

Exactly! That's why I cringe at the thought of modern racers trying to drive our "Got Wood" proxy cars.

 

As an example, at one of our local club tracks I demo'd a vintage Pittman 196 powered GP car with the old "German" rubber tires of the period. As I drifted the car around the turns one of the racers offered the advise that I needed to clean the tires to stop that sliding around.

 

I tried to explain that the old cars aren't hammered and slammed around the track like their modern cars.

 

 

.......I don't like rules that restrict innovation, and especially I don't like rules that seek to make things fair by requiring them to be "equal".  The unvarnished truth is that "equal" is an illusion........

 

Ohhhhhhhhhh......................what you said! I can envision you being stoned by a mass hoard of racers with fist fulls of sealed motors.

 

However, I agree and you can hide at my place if you need to.

[SlotStox#53]

 

 

Ohhhhhhhhhh......................what you said! I can envision you being stoned by a mass hoard of racers with fist fulls of sealed motors.

 

However, I agree and you can hide at my place if you need to.

   Love it Rick! Is there a spare spot to hide under your track?

 

can't believe that racer suggested cleaning the tires just because it was sliding... wasn't lack of grip... it's called powersliding

[dc-65x]

If you all you've ever driven are modern cars it would look strange to see a vintage car on sponge rubber tires sliding around the turns    .

 

I think it's fun to drive something different like those old cars.
  

[Steve Okeefe]

Rick,

 

You wrote:

 

As an example, at one of our local club tracks I demo'd a vintage Pittman 196 powered GP car with the old "German" rubber tires of the period. As I drifted the car around the turns one of the racers offered the advise that I needed to clean the tires to stop that sliding around.

 

And in the process clearly demonstrated their abysmal ignorance of the history of their own hobby.  I can feel the pain...

 

Ohhhhhhhhhh......................what you said! I can envision you being stoned by a mass hoard of racers with fist fulls of sealed motors.

 

I don't suppose it would help at this point to perform some legerdemain gesture and whisper "Veritas vos liberabit"?

 

However, I agree and you can hide at my place if you need to.

 

It is truly a cruel twist of fate that we live on opposite sides of the country...

 

Venkman - "We've got to get these two together..."

 

Spengler - "I think that would be extroadinarily dangerous..."

 

 

[dc-65x]

 

Venkman - "We've got to get these two together..."

 

Spengler - "I think that would be extroadinarily dangerous..."

 

 

 

"I am Vinz, Vinz Clortho, Keymaster of Gozer. Volguus Zildrohar, Lord of the Sebouillia. Are you the Gatekeeper?"

[SlotStox#53]

Remember, "don't cross the streams"!!

[Champion 507]

Many of today's wing car racers cannot get an FCR around the track very well, if at all.

 

In 2004 the NATS came to town and some of the pro wing car guys were invited to our FCR race before all the wing car stuff started the next day. Each pro was provided a very decent FCR car (capable of winning or finishing well at our weekly races) by the track owner. I think one driver did okay because he was a racer back in the day (Mike Swiss?) but the others finished toward the back.

 

Obviously, an FCR could be considered as a distant grandchild of AMT's 36D brass pan chassis car, thus being the closest link from today's racing to the 1960s. As Steve or someone pointed out, you had to finesse a car around each turn. Our track owner would not allow any goop of any kind near the track (1965-1966). All we could do was clean our tires with rubbing alcohol.

 

So, yeah, old time driving required finesse. Today's "driving" requires patting the right amount of glue in the turns, the correct spoiler angles, 32 or more magnet segments for each $200-$300 motor, adjustable chokes on each $300-$500 controller and LLOOTTSS of cash!!!

 

No, thanks, give me the 1960s.

 

Steve, awesome car. Nice job.

[Steve Okeefe]

Thank you, Doug.    

 

I prefer the 1960s too, although I hardly need to say it.

 

My idea of fun is to be out on a large, fast commercial track driving (finessing) a 1960s slot racer that is capable of going just a bit faster than I can control.  All other things taken into account, I suspect that may be true for the wing car guys and their cars as well.

 

In fact, in the 1960s, we were building and driving the fastest slot cars on the planet, right?  Learning about and pushing the (then current) technology to its absolute limit, right?  With respect to this, what are the wing car guys doing today?

 

Still, one of the fundamental differences between "old time driving" and modern wing car driving is the finesse.  It was a skill you had to develop yourself through dedication and effort.  No amount of blinding speed or high-technology can make up for that.