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#51 Rob Voska

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:44 AM

It's hard for anyone that has a machining background to use these small machines. Everything seems like it is tiny, knobs are in odd locations, most are hand feed. You can get them to work but all the while your mind is saying what a POS.  I could have been done long ago "if I only"..........

 

When you are used to taking heavy cuts .050-.250 taking only .010 on what we think of as a "toy" gets very annoying quickly.

 

Problem is a Bridgeport and 8-10" lathe take up a lot of room........ but laid out well they can take up only a small amount of room.  There are also a lot of great quality machines that are table top size that have been in basements that are of great quality and very useful for small projects.






#52 MarkH

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 10:00 AM

Hi John, this thread has a lot of good thoughts in it. Of all the stuff I have done throughout my life, being a Machinist I value the most. Even over being a Tooling Design Engineer. It took a lot longer and a lot more work to Make Journeyman Toolmaker and has given me more mental tools than I can state. Creating something from a block of metal that can be used for something cool is very rewarding.

There was some talk about scaring off people wanting to learn the machining skills but I would say this: Please join us. We need more people that can make things. These are skills you can only attain by scrapping parts, modifying designs, burning your arms and hands with hot metal chips as they fall on you but you can not let go of the handle until the cut is finished and machining a variety of parts from different approaches. It will be worth all the effort.

 

So, to the machine. Based on the info available, requirements of a small compact lathe and a bunch of time looking around, for my money it would be Micro Mark 7x16 first with the tooling package from little machine shop, then the Little Machine Shop 7x12 second. As mentioned earlier, I really like the .050" dials on the Micro. If the Little Machine also has them the only advantage I can see with the Micro is a longer bed for drilling holes. For making Slot Car parts and small fixtures or jigs, this is all anyone would need. 

 

While I have other equipment, I have to drive over to the shop to use it. It would be real convenient to just walk over 12 feet and make that parts I need while building or work on a car. As I was looking around I noticed some of the lathes have only square beds/ways. These have a tendency to jam up as the saddle moves left and right over time. So avoid these. Also with the small stuff we do the variable speed on this unit, eliminating all the gears which are usually junk and noisy on cheap lathes, would be enough. Rob mentions above that not having the ability to take heavy cuts will ruin the experience. If I am making a bunch of parts requiring a lot of metal removal I would agree, but I do not see that being a problem for what we would be making in Slot Car Building. If you do make something from a large piece of stock and have to turn it down to a small diameter, how many times will you be doing it. If a lot, then these hobby lathes would be the wrong choice. 


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#53 havlicek

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 11:12 AM

Hi Mark, and thanks for the thoughtful reply!

 

 

 

There was some talk about scaring off people wanting to learn the machining skills

 

Well honestly, and PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, that comes off more as "look how much I know" kind of stuff (between machinists and/or within earshot of non-machinists) in the context of the usual "OT" replies that get posted in these things.  When people post about some industrial 2-ton machine in a thread about wanting information about mini and micro lathes relating to small-scale (slots) work at home...or about the details of becoming, and working as a journeyman, I know my eyes start to gloss over and imagine others do as well.  I'm a tradesman, but not a machinist or even a general metal-worker, so I fully understand (and appreciate) the value of precision, working with sharp tools, learning the limitations of a particular machine, not "forcing" a work-piece etc.  I mentioned the "just the facts ma'am" thing a couple of times to try and keep things on track here, because I see these things as resources for others who may be looking in for the same information.  ***As background, I've spent a LOT of time teaching people how to use digital and analog recording equipment specifically for a particular Japanese manufacturer, and people seemed especially appreciative of the fact that I try to demystify things when explaining them.  Getting bogged down in techno-speak, while impressive to some, doesn't help people to understand the way I see it.  Come to think of it, I've filled several hundred pages right here trying to convince people that winding armatures and building motors isn't a "black art"!

 

Believe me when I say that I respect ALL tradespeople who care about their work, however I respect "attitude" far more than any particular piece of equipment, so having machinists with that attitude (such as yourself and others) chime in means a good deal to me!  I fully expect to be learning and working at whatever new piece of gear I get for a long time before being truly productive and accurate with it, but there is really no difference between a lathe and say a wet-saw or surface planer or a lathe in that regard...other than scale and tolerances.

 

Back on lathes, the two you mention DO seem to have some specific advantages...and there are even some "micro" sized (jewelry/watchmaker size) that could be appropriate.  Your reasoning makes a whole lot of sense and your expertise...and willingness to share it, are MUCH appreciated!

 

-john


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#54 Duffy

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 11:42 AM

Yah, I'm the guy who said the scary thing first, and I didn't mean it to puff myself up: I was trying to give you the things you would be noticing after you made a purchase, and maybe regretting - and that is truly scary, but knowing up front shouldn't scare you off. Does that make sense?

 

You guys're doing a great job of laying out all the info here, I'll leave you to it.

 

Duf


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#55 havlicek

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 11:57 AM

No worries Duffy.  You sort of expect these things to "wobble" a little anyway.  Stuff like the Little Machine Nano Lathe make me wonder if even something that small might serve me (and others who do slot-car type stuff).

 

-john
 


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#56 Rick

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 12:26 PM

John. Many of the small lathes offered up will do what you need. They are reasonably priced and if you check out all the Yahoo Groups, plenty of tips about them and ways to improve them. I know I probably have spent 3 X's the amount of my Asian lathe(9 X 20) for tooling. I have looked at the smaller one at Harbor Freight and it is REALLY a hobby machine. The sherline or Unimate would probably serve you well, for your needs..................


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#57 MarkH

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 12:56 PM

OK, one last thing. You need any help at all machining anything at all, I will do my best to help you out. I am sure others will do the same.

 

Funny thing is, while I have a bunch of experience, mine would be different than say Rick or Duffy. There may be three different approaches between the three of us on the same job and that does not mean anyone is wrong, just different. Anyone claiming to be all knowing in anything should be held in suspect. When I was training apprentices I always stressed to them "..This is the way I would do it. Please do it this way first so you understand why." They would sometimes say that someone else does it differently where I would respond they should take the ideas, from each who trained them, that make the most sense to them an do their way. Use the best ideas, make them your own and you have the best chance for success. 


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#58 Rob Voska

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:39 PM

After posting I got to thinking about this topic on a long drive today.  Have you ever heard of a vertical lathe?  I use my mill as a vertical lathe for most of my round work slot car stuff.  Bought some of the better grade (accurate) tooling in 2MM, 3/32, 1/8" and it works great.   Kills two birds with one stone..........



#59 chaparrAL

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 11:33 PM

In post #35 Mark H posted the old shool way to straighten out a 3 jaw chuck.
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John any of these lathes will do a super job, with a tool post grinder, of grinding stacks on an arm, if you follow the procedure described by Mark.
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#60 havlicek

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:41 AM

Once again...many thanks for all the useful information.  I'm sure others (besides myself!) will see this thread as a valuable resource!  I'm sort of shying away from the "watchmaker" or "micro" lathes at this point, even though they'd probably do whatever small stuff I might get into, but it seems like there are several worthy choices...a good thing!  I'd like to be able to set up a small bench...as small as possible, to do both milling and turning eventually.  First off, I gotta sell a bunch of motors and armatures!  :)

 

-john


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#61 SlotStox#53

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 02:15 PM

Count me as one of the others John! :)  Some really useful information /do's & don'ts , if once I have some space to even put a bench :laugh2:  this info will come in handy

 

Good luck with selling some motors & reaching your Lathe goal....  Look forward to seeing what motors & arms you create! :D



#62 Duffy

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 02:49 PM

I wonder, now that John's at decision point on his lathe: should we open this thread up to take in the broader topic the title implies?Are there other things to be discussed, or has it all been covered in Rick Thigpen's Toys For Retirement?


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#63 havlicek

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:33 PM

Although Rick has (in my mind anyway) about the most lustworthy setup I can imagine...AND has shared/documented it beautifully, I see no reason to not go into this stuff in a general fashion.  I'll be looking at getting a small vertical mill (the Proxxon and a few others are already calling me  :)  ), and others have started threads about small bench top drill presses as well as band saws, rotary tools, grinders and the like.  It might be a VERY handy thing to have a single reference on strictly power tools for slots Duffy!  I know I would always read something about that stuff, and suspect others might as well...ESPECIALLY if the suggestions stay relevant for slot enthusiasts.

 

-john


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#64 Marty N

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 06:02 PM

Levin $17,000-$30,000. Wabeco $5,000-$10,000. Micro Mark $1,000/Harbor Freight $500 (all Seig C3 based).

Precision, 50 millionths to "close to next door", declining. Been down this road. The machine is the short end of the deal...tooling can double cost quicker than I can type this. I've got five of these machines and the best of the bunch is a used 1950 ish Southbend 10 light. $2,500 fully tooled. Second an Atlas 6" with very low miles. $1,000, nicely tooled.

My first was a Harbor Seig C3 and after several hundred hours of hand work and a few thousand dollars I had a machine that was very acurate and precise at half the cost of the Wabeco but not what I had in mind when I bought it. Wasn't looking for a project. Just say'n....

Looking at older watchmakers, instrument and clocking lathes be sure of the collets systems. You can get anything made for a price but the price is stupid for some of these.
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#65 Duffy

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 06:49 PM

Marty's touched on something that needs to be looked at in this discussion: how much of the tuning-up process is because the machine needs it to work properly, and how much of it is just a natural part of the learning curve between machine and machinist?

 

We tinker with our stuff without knowing we're doing it. There are pliers, cooking tools, even shoes that we reach for because they're right, and those things also influence how we use them. Same goes for the bigger machines. I'm constantly "reading" my machines in my toolroom, just like I do with my car; and I make small adjustments in my operations to make best use of the immediate conditions and the current state of the machine I know. Like, I trust my car or my milling machine to do this much, and I keep my actions within that limit.

That measure of trust, that ability to rely on what a thing will do in a given situation, that's a thing you learn over time.

So, In my workplace, I know how to hold needed tolerances on my brokedown old Bridgeport, despite its worn gibs and wobbly spindle. Sure, it'd be easier if I could just plug&play, but I can't. I've got used to doing good work on the machine I got. Knowing where the limits are, trusting the machine within those limits, I do just fine.

 

It occurs, in our marriages as well as our tools, it might be that the best we can hope for in any interaction is a kind of sustained level of tolerable misery. Find it, stay with it. Hey, works for meee.

 

Duf


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#66 Marty N

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 10:51 AM

I will admit, some very nice parts can be made on some very bad equipment. Yep, learing curve is important and some of that goes into some creative "work arounds", or can. Who hasn't had to play the lead screw nut slop? Worn gib, oh yea! A machine that cuts a thou per inch taper is another thing, even at our scale. A saddle that's tight for a few inches then falling off the next few? This is the world of $500 Asian lathes. IMHO I shouldn't need a taper bar to turn a true 3" long cycliner...LOL.
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#67 havlicek

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:55 PM

Well guys, the thing is that most slot enthusiasts (like me!) will be working within a small budget and that means machines with weaknesses.  Besides thoughts about machines within that kind of budget, some advice about getting the most out of them would be a big help.  Seems like the majority of these machines come out of a single factory in China (with different paint jobs and badges), so the information should be widely applicable.

 

-john


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#68 MarkH

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 10:01 PM

John, even a not so great machine is better than a file, vise and hand drill I think we all agree. I was going to just watch until you asked for more help so here we go. There are things that can improve even cheaper equipment to bring them more to the tolerances we can live with.

 

First thing is to put something like a dowel pin, you can get one from McMaster here, in the chuck to check the concentricity of the spindle. Indicate it in so it runs true (bumping will/may be required of the jaws-tighten more as you get closer to zero). If you can not get it to zero movement on the indicator, write down the dim. This will be the concentricity that you can expect to hold. If the spindle has slop in the main bearings causing excess movement you might be able to fix it by staking the spindle where it engages the bearings, using loctite to take up the gap or tighten compression sleeve if so equipped. Knowing how close the concentricity you can achieve is important. Keep in mind, this is from the work holding to the cut diameters. If you are cutting two or more diameters with the same work holding the concentricity between those may be better.

 

Second thing: Move the indicator out to the end of the dowel pin and indicate it to zero or as close as you can. If it will not zero out make sure the run out is the same near the chuck and at the far end. (It would be a better idea to do this for the first step as well) When this is running true as you spin the chuck run the saddle/carriage back and forth from both ends with the indicator in the center of the pin. If you get anything except zero write down the dim. This will produce a taper twice the measurement because you are only measuring one side of the diameter. If the head is bolted to the bed, loosen those bolts and bump the head until you get as close to zero as you can get. If the machine had square ways this may be much more difficult to dial in than with the "V" ground ways (Much preferred). If there is play in the saddle find the adjustment screws to take out the excess slop and try again. By the way, the cross slide and compound slide should be locked into position so you can eliminate those moving while you check the straightness.

-----Another check here would be to put the indicator on the top of the dowel pin to see if it is parallel to the ways. If not, write that dims down as well.

 

Next you will need to check that the cross slide actually moves 90 degrees to the spindle center line for facing. One way, not the only way, is to clamp a precision sqaure to the dowel pin. Put the indicator on the edge of the square and move the cross slide back and forth. Here you are at the mercy of the ways unless it is a square way machine. If the indicator moves showing out of square and the machine does have square ways you can/ should be able to adjust the screws to rotate the saddle/carriage back to square. Get this as close to square as you can. If the machine has a "V" ground way your are pretty much stuck with what you have without some extra work in a Bridgeport to correct it.

 

Check the compound angle. Indicate the pin to zero while bumping the compound parallel with the pin. Verify the register mark is on zero. If not, make a new mark. Locate the opposite end of the angle scale on the compound and verify the register mark is good there.

 

Center the Tail Stock. Two methods here. 1) put the indicator in the chuck and spin in the bore of the tail stock spindle while the tail stock bed and spindle locks are secure. Bump the tail stock in or out until it zeros. Front and back being zero is more import then up and down. Both would be great. If the spindle center line is high, the base of the tail stock could be machined to bring it down to center line. If it is low, you are kind of stuck without maybe plating the bottom of the tail stock and having it ground back to center line.

2) Get a ground shaft, Thompson rod is good, at a length that would be the longest distance from a center in both the chuck and the tail stock. The Thompson rod should be small enough in diameter to fit down the headstock spindle (7/8 or 3/4"should be good, check to be sure). Put Thompson shaft into chuck. Indicate it to zero run out. Center drill and drill a 1/4" hole about 3/8 deep. Set the compound on 30 degrees and cut a true surface for a live or dead center, about 3/16" long. Do the same on the other end of the Thompson rod. Now make a dead center for the chuck (google search images), put a dead or live center (dead is most likely more accurate) in the tail stock. Put the rod between centers with light pressure from the tail stock. Indicate the shaft from one end to the other. Offset tail stock as needed.

 

These few things will dial in to the best you can hope for on any lathe. While there may be more than my way to get there, these are proven.


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#69 havlicek

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:30 AM

Thanks mark!

 

-john


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#70 Marty N

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:05 PM

Nice write up Mark. Should be pinned. :)


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#71 Phil Hackett

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:54 AM

YouTube has some very good videos about small garage shops:

 

(Edit 1-13-14-- the discussion about the lathe is very near the beginning of the video. You won't need to watch the whole thing to get to the lathe part.....)

 

This one involves a man who has accumulated small tools and has a Bridgeport mill and a Monarch 10ee lathe in his garage. What might be the most relevant thing about this video is what this man has to say about the various lathes he has owned and how he obtained the Monarch (in case you don't know, the Monarch 10ee is a **very** highly regarded and desirable toolroom lathe).

 

If you watch long enough you'll find out that the owner, and the "interviewer", don't know what some of the tools are. I'll bet some of the skilled machinists of this forum will cringe when they see these tools and "I don't have any idea what **this** is!" is uttered.

 

 

 

Also check out oxtoolco's channel on youtube for some very good explanations and demonstrations of various techniques used in shops that can be directly used for "hobby" projects.


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