190 replies to this topic

[Cheater]

Not asking for divine quality control, just asking for the correct number of turns. From talking to people who have dealt with overseas suppliers, they seem to think its pretty easy to get all the motors with the right number of turns, or more.

Cap, just have to say that your statement is totally at odds with what I hear from people who have products made in China. In fact, it's almost a joke that production pieces almost never match the pre-production samples supplied.

And, as you mentioned, there is simply no way to determine that all motors have "the right number of turns, or more".

[Pappy]

And, as you mentioned, there is simply no way to determine that all motors have "the right number of turns, or more".

End of story.

[Gator Bob]

... people who have products made in China. In fact, it's almost a joke that production pieces almost never match the pre-production samples supplied.

 
Interesting.

So if that is true then who is really on the butt end of the almost joke?

[Matt Sheldon]

I have many electronic (including 3D/4D articulation motors) and piezo crystal components manufactured for my ultrasound business in China. What they are great at is cosmetic replication, however anything that requires precise specification or tolerances on average takes 5-8 revisions and many engineering babysitting hours.

Like many have posted it is all how much you want to invest to get the product you are after.

[jimht]

Ever since I started in this Hobby I've seen chassis builders dominate the racing, not because they built the chassis they raced but because they knew how to tune their car. That still hasn't changed. Might be that sometimes a chassis builder/car tuner isn't a good driver, but that's not the point. 

Granted, the fastest motor in the best handling car is the goal, but even a mediocre motor in the best handling car will win... as long as it's in the hands of a good driver.
 
Besides, quibbling about variations in motor performance is an exercise in futility. There will always be variations and no matter what, those variations will be relevant to someone, even if they are infinitesimal.
 
So, why the whining about motors when they really don't matter that much in this program, supposedly?
 
Races have been won and lost with all the motors being discussed, so perhaps they're all good enough, eh?
 
The hassle is that it costs time and money to sort out the combinations that work.
 
If there's any hindsight to be considered here it's that in a program that is supposed to emphasize chassis building and tuning over motor performance allowing more than one motor type is a mistake.

Allowing three or more is a disaster.
 
The expense of figuring out which is the best for a particular situation is ridiculous.
Luckily, those who feel the need can apparently afford it... but complain endlessly about the burden regardless.
 
I hate to throw my 2 cents worth in without offering a solution, but... the real solution is a hard one: pick a date and exclude a motor. If there are still problems, pick another date and exclude another, etc, etc.

Don't like my solution? Offer another.

[Noose]

Jim, easy solution. Don't need to anything because half of the whining about speed is perception anyway. Costs are real and to the masses the affordability of the lower cost motors now that are more reliable than the others makes Retro that much more attractive.

[Dominator]

How about building a better chassis so the motor goes faster?

[gjc2]

Motor equality is an issue in every form of motorsports, why should we be exempt?
 
There’s always the hot set-up in chassis, tires, motors, controllers, etc., but the top guys always run up front regardless of their equipment.

[John Streisguth]

Actually, from my perception, the addition of this motor does not add to the cost, it reduces it. Why? I have found some PD motors work better at certain tracks and in certain cars than others. I recently put together a list of my records of what motors raced well at the tracks I race at, and of 11 motors I found one I have never raced because it was a dog everywhere. Others are good at some tracks, some are good at others. I have not found the RH to be superior at all tracks, but it gives me an inexpensive OPTION to try. And for the classes that require an FK motor, I'm happy because it's no longer one and done for me. 
 
Hopefully the next batch of these motors will have better quality control regarding the winding. The one RH motor I dewound had one pole with 66 turns. 
 
And I am still hesitant to use one of these in a big race if I have a PD motor that works as well. They still go "poof" more often than PD motors. 

[Gator Bob]

OMG... It's the same story over and over and over again. Don't you guys get sick of saying the same thing over and over and over again?

 

... better tuning, more practice, it's cheap, equal playing field, BiG races, ad nauseam. Then the 'King of the slot car track' will come on and you can all bow to his comments of wisdom and greatness.

 

It's like watching reruns of a stupid show that has been on since the mid-'60s.

 

Oops, Did I just say all that out loud?

[Duffy]

Discussion centering around Haruki's topic is pretty much limited to page one of this thread, and thereafter it's veered into repeats of arguments and positions covered elsewhere. Some people would consider this sort of opportunistic hijacking rude, and especially rude to the thread's originator.

 

It would be useful as well as courteous to try and get back to parsing the RH results in different venues and with different setups. As we add results and data from other events, we may see some valuable conclusions emerging, things we can apply to our choices of both FK and PS setups in the future. This thread, maybe tidied-up a bit, could be a real asset.

 

Duf

[JerseyJohn]

Jim, easy solution. Don't need to anything because half of the whining about speed is perception anyway. Costs are real and to the masses the affordability of the lower cost motors now that are more reliable than the others makes Retro that much more attractive.

 
I couldn't agree more, Joe. How many racers complained because they had to buy several PDs to get a good one? Using the RH is a no-brainer. Inexpensive and more reliable than previous FK styles.
 
And please don't talk about specs. EVERY motor we use has some variation of specs... the RH is the motor we all have been complaining for... please stop this insane BS and go racing, guys.
 
RH forever.

[Gator Bob]

This thread, maybe tidied-up a bit, could be a real asset.

 
Or swept under the rug... again.

[MSwiss]

I'm not one bit concerned about my arms being out of spec, if they were I'd have been notified and my arm replaced

And what exactly is in it for them?

You have the manufacturer who would have to admit the bag motor you might of won a race(s) with is illegal/out of spec, and a refurber who tout's the winning motor as being "Hershpower".

I'll bet my lofty resume in my tagline that the .015" difference in air gap, bottom to top, or the extra 20 degrees allowed on timing will affect a motor's performance more than a 1 or 2 turn difference on one pole of a 65t motor.

Where was outrage the first six years of Retro that a PD might have as much as 16% more timing than spec?

[redbackspyder]

My only issue with the Retro Hawk is the ones out of spec. I completely understand how a competitive $13 motor is a benefit to new people and the average racer. I get that, trust me. But it needs to meet spec. That's my only complaint.

Cap, just a question, hasn't the motor chair person of the IRRA™ done all this testing to insure that the motors that were approved were within the specs that the TM laid down?
 
The couple of Retro Hawks that I have seen at Buena Park varied widely, one was a dog, one was a rocket...  
 
Greg, I deal with China every day, ordering and monitoring hundreds of thousands of components on each order, and the good Chinese factories produce excellent goods.  

Goods that are in spec within + or - a couple thousandths, so I that is why pre-production samples are made and either approved or disapproved...  Then it is up to your QC department once the real product comes in to certify that the products were made to spec... Ask Noose, I am sure he knows quality control
 
But to say that the Chinese are incapable of making quality components that cost a $1 or so is a completely inaccurate statement. 

[gotboostedvr6]

From memory these topics had the Retro guys in a tizzy over the last few years:

Speed rubber (Brazil sourced)
Kelly Bulldog tires
Dragonslayer chassis
JK X25R chassis
Demon, Evil 9 motors
Pro Slot motor wind spec change
Kelly Retro tires
Center-hinged chassis
IRRA™ vs LLC
JK Retro hawk

What's next, guys...?

PS: If I missed something please add to my list.

[Gator Bob]

Going back to the OP I think Duffy is 100% correct on a reset.

 

Haruki Kan was providing facts and results and it went off the rails.... again. 

 

Now, I don't take back anything I said but with respect for Haruki and his crew, the facts presented and the non-biased testing I agree on a clean up.  

[Cheater]

Bob,

It's a good suggestion.

Won't be able to get to it tonight, but I'll try to split the thread to isolate Haruki's useful data from all the noise tomorrow morning.

[Cheater]

Goods that are in spec within + or - a couple thousandths, so I that is why pre-production samples are made and either approved or disapproved... Then it is up to your QC department once the real product comes in to certify that the products were made to spec.

So everyone pissing and moaning about the Retro Hawk specs variances here at Slotblog should actually be marching with their pitchforks and torches to the JK QC department!

[Gator Bob]

Greg,

I think that is the point... but... the way I see it most might be looking to Mike as the Promotion Manager to do that instead of defending its flaws.
 
The path to Jerry goes right past Mike's office door.

[Cheater]

Bob,

That's pretty silly and insulting IMO.

I guess next you'll be claiming Mike is K&S's Marketing Manager because all the brass bits he sells...

[MSwiss]

I think that is the point... but... the way I see it most might be looking to Mike as the Promotion Manager to do that instead of defending its flaws. The path to Jerry goes right past Mike's office door.

  

That's pretty silly and insulting IMO. I guess next you'll be claiming Mike is K&S's Marketing Manager because all the brass bits he sells...

Greg,

I'm not insulted whatsoever.

I did my job.

The motors I checked were fine. They were .15 slower than the few top PDs I've ever had.

Bob is just being "Bob". At least he didn't post his 793rd YouTube video. LOL.

[Cheater]

Not yet...

[Gator Bob]

A bit snarky yes .. insulting, not the intent.
 
Hang with me I'll come up with a song... any preference on genre?   
 
In the mean time, the way 'Bob'  reads it here on Slotblog is:
 
It's not all about check/teching these motors and approving them for use in the series.

• Mike is promoting winners who run C/R products and is great marketing for the products he develops and sells. IMO they are great high quality parts.
• Mike doing support engineering design of chassis kits and motor technical and sales support as well as post promoting winners that use them for Jerry's sake is good for the hobby overall but has the appearance of favoritism to one vendor and a possible conflict of interest.

Note the word "appearance" to Bob   before anyone flips out.
 
Greg, the K&S comment is not germane.
 
OK... came up with video #794.     

 

[NSwanberg]

I like the RH, however, I am finding they start to surge after the third race or so. The problem may be in my set up but they do not seem to do it when they are new.
 
Another potential problem I have noticed with the six I have dealt with so far is that the knot on the comm wrap is sometimes above the base of the comm and near a copper leaf. Is the knot hitting the brush tabs during hot laps? It would take on-board video monitoring of the motor to prove that one way or the other.
 
I wish they were not blister packed so I could look at the motor before I buy it and make sure the knot on the wrap is in the correct position. Also, I like to be able to turn the motor over, check end play, and check the number of balance marks.
 
One thing I do not understand is that since the RH is not as hot a wind as the Hawk 7 why does the RH need a comm wrap? The Hawk 7 seems to do just fine without being wrapped.