1441 replies to this topic

[stemmy]

The numbers John is giving are facts. The fact is this motor was approved way to quickly with not enough testing done or tear downs. The bod screwed this one up and it sounds like they can't except it.

[Tex]

You guys are makin' too big a deal about this. It's nothing more than less than perfect manufacturing that yields some "out-of-spec" motors. I'll hazard the guess that most have 65 turns and some arms/poles have less and some arms/poles have more. Haven't you guys ever wondered why you'd sometimes get a really good motor? And why sometimes you get a dud? FK arms/poles with fewer/more than 65 winds has been going on as long as they've made the motors. Locals here have torn them down years ago(F7's) with the same results.... most have 65 turns, some fewer, some more. My GOD what do you people expect from a $12 motor originally used for such applications as sideview mirrors in cars? What DOES make a sideview mirror motor "out of spec"? Do you think it matters for such use if it has a few more/less winds? 65 turns may be the optimal spec as described on some order form, but a certain "variance" has to be expected when churning out tens of thousands of units so cheaply made. Do you think the Chinese factory owner cares if a few of the motors have a few more/less winds? Do you think the CEO's of Ford/Chrysler/Toyota/BMW, etc, etc, etc CARE if those motors have a few more/less winds? WE adopted motors perfectly acceptable for THEIR original use for our OWN use... a use not originally envisioned when the motor was designed. My GOD what bunch of prissy prima-donnas!

 

Roll the dice, pay yer $12 and have FUN. Burn it out, go get another one. If you run the ProSlot 4002's, what the @%$# do you care? I'm so tired of you guys that ain't got nuthin' better to do than bitch and moan and fret about somethin' that don't amount to a hill o' beans.

 

Gimme my yellow warning, Greg; I deserve it. BUT AT LEAST I GOT TO TELL THE PANTYWADS OFF!

[Samiam]

This current "FK" style motor was spec'd by JK to meet all IRRA motor rules. It met that criteria and was approved. What nobody expected was that it would be so good. I just raced a JK HR in it's 6th race. Upon inspection it still has some brush life. When this thing finally dies I'm having it bronzed. 

[W. J. Dougherty]

It's within 10%...

 

Is that good enough?

 

What does the contract call for?

 

Heaven forbid the factory short wind the arms to save money.

 

Need to call Michele ASAP so she, the girls, and grandma can go fix this immediately...  I'm sure the hotel staff would appreciate it.

[Greg VanPeenen]

Chinese close tolerance manufacturing specs. plus or minus 5%. You get what you pay for. If you think it's that much better then the Puppy Dog then let the Pro Slot FK motor run.  

[Pappy]

PS: I measured the wire diameter and it's .011" on the nose. The Rule/spec is 30 awg and that is .010002" diameter. So, the wire is larger and out of specification according to the rules. This could also explain why these motors are faster. Bigger diameter wire means much more speed.

The Hawk has a different can than a Pro Slot, different magnets, different springs, different brushes, different commutator, a different stack, and you are complaining about a few 10,000th of an inch in the diameter of the wire in a burnt-out motor. 
 
See Tex's post #1052.

[slotcarone]

I agree with Tex on this one!!!  Lets Race!!

[Guillermo Suar]

You measure a 0.011 diameter. I'm assuming your instrument can discern 0.001" then. So, there is a chance that the real number was 0.0106 and still the display will show the 0.011. 
 
Do you have the calibration chart for the instrument you used? Usually the percentage error is higher in the lower area of the span because of the fixed absolute error. A 5%-10% at that range won't be unusual at all if you are using a low cost caliper.
 
Let's be conservative and assume a 5%. Your real number then might be 0.0106 x 0.95 = 0.01007 which will still meet the #30 gauge spec.
 
So, you are saying that all motors are out of spec, based on a non-representative sample measurement taken with a non-calibrated instrument?
 
I don't think you will win this case if it goes to court. 

[Rick]

Very interesting read and quite ridiculous! Specs are just  that, S-P-E-C-S. There is no nominal implied or expected. 65 means 65, not 63 or 66. If they do not all meet thattttt, then they are out. Plain and simple ORRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr you won't mind if PS winds the Puppy Dog arms about 75 turns? Even  Swiss admits finding one at 66 turns, if that is the case of one over, there could also be some with 1 or 2 or 5 less. The excuse of poor Chinese quality control does not apply and the you get what you pay for, either. Odd we didn't have this issue with the F7 and the TSR. They were just like the PD, some good, some average and some poor. But the HR is running all in the good range. Hummmmm. wonder why?...

[MSwiss]

Haven't you guys ever wondered why you'd sometimes get a really good motor? And why sometimes you get a dud? FK arms/poles with fewer/more than 65 winds has been going on as long as they've made the motors. Locals here have torn them down years ago(F7's) with the same results... most have 65 turns, some fewer, some more.

 

Odd we didn't have this issue with the F7 and the TSR. They were just like the PD, some good, some average and some poor. But the HR is running all in the good range. Hummmmm. wonder why?....

Sorry Rick,
You are incorrect.  
See Tex's above post. 
 
Chinese wound arms have always had an issue with the amount of turns.
 
When I got back into slots in 1982, after a $150 to win Womp race, Stu had to dewind the winning 16D motor and all three poles had a different amount of turns.
 
If you think all Chinese arms are identical, or can be expected to be identical, you probably also believe all PD arms are exactly 25 degrees, have identical resistance, and think the Tooth Fairy is a real person.
 
As Tex confirmed, FKs have always had varying amounts of turns.
 
If this was a legitimate concern, our original motor chair had five years to bring it to our attention.

[Rick]

Passing the buck back to Hershman isn't what we are addressing here. That's an easy way out. YOUR specs say 65 turns, so now we have to burn down every FK motor that hits the podium to see if meets spec or not? That will be frugal, one motor, one race, LOL. I am sure you guys won't mind if I request Pro Slot to wind me some  70 turns then? THE IRRA required seals assure us racers that the timing in correct. Now you're implying the Fast Ones and Pro Slot are passing thru out of spec Puppy Dog motors? Or is it just a smoke screen to cover your backside?... because you approved a POS that has no spec criteria, other than about 65 turns... One must clean up their own house before they go after some one else's house...

[One_Track_Mind]

Swiss said "If this was a legitimate concern, our original motor chair had five years to bring it to our attention."

Wasn't that why you wanted him out? Less amount of turns on a Chinese armed motor?

[Cheater]

No, Brian, he was voted off, in part, because he didn't communicate to the BoD what he knew. IOW, he didn't do the job he pledged to do.
 

I am sure you guys won't mind if I request Pro Slot to wind me some 70 turns [arms] then?

Sure, you can ask, but I believe DeBella has integrity and will refuse to do it. Let us know, OK?
 

So, you are saying that all motors are out of spec, based on a non-representative sample measurement taken with a non-calibrated instrument?

Sorta my point to Neja: it isn't reasonable to damn every JK RH based on one motor being inspected.

[Pappy]

Sorta my point to Neja: it isn't reasonable to damn every JK RH based on one motor being inspected.

One "burnt up" motor being inspected. How do we know the wire didn't expand when it burnt up? Does anyone know if wire expands after it's been heated?

[John Miller]

... I think that you guys should take a look and ensure that the wire is of the proper specification. I don't have a high-end micrometer and that is what it will take.

 

You measure a 0.011 diameter. I'm assuming your instrument can discern 0.001" then. So, there is a chance that the real number was 0.0106 and still the display will show the 0.011. 
 
Do you have the calibration chart for the instrument you used? Usually the percentage error is higher in the lower area of the span because of the fixed absolute error. A 5%-10% at that range won't be unusual at all if you are using a low cost caliper.
 
Let's be conservative and assume a 5%. Your real number then might be 0.0106 x 0.95 = 0.01007 which will still meet the #30 gauge spec.
 
So, you are saying that all motors are out of spec, based on a non-representative sample measurement taken with a non-calibrated instrument?
 
I don't think you will win this case if it goes to court. 

 
Guillermo, you must have not read my post where I qualified my findings and stated that an accurate instrument needed to be used for measurement. I have also stated that I will test more, but in the end, does it matter? Do any of us think that the BoD is going to make any changes? What can they do about it?

[John Miller]

The Hawk has a different can than a Pro Slot, different magnets, different springs, different brushes, different commutator, a different stack, and you are complaining about a few 10,000th of an inch in the diameter of the wire in a burnt-out motor. 
 
See Tex's post #1052.

 

I'm not complaining.  I simply tested one, took measurements and reported what I found.

 

1) The wire Diameter may be larger than the 30 AWG specification.

2) The stack length is under the specification

3) The arm diameter is under specification

4) The amount of turns per pole is not within specification.

 

This is not complaining.  These are my findings.

[Don Weaver]

Gentlemen,

 

You need to get your knickers untwisted over wire diameters found in FK or any motor for that matter.  Wire is produced to exacting specs with very tight tolerances (IEC for metric and NEMA for U.S. use) by various manufacturers.  The motor manufacturers have nothing to do with wire size variation used in their motors.

 

Don Weaver

[Rick]

Quote Cheater" Sure, you can ask, but I believe DeBella has integrity and will refuse to do it. Let us know, OK?"

 

I agree with you, but DeBella isn't the ones whose integrity is in question here......

[Duffy]

It was just this morning that I saw Butch Dunaway's signoff: "Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about."

 

John did indeed include a disclaimer about his equipment (which got me thinking about just who in this crowd can actually resolve below four decimals anyhow, and I notice that nobody here has actually stepped up to declare it) - and once he raised the question, the discussion went into talk about manufacturers' standards and one or two guys just fanning the flames - but no further real-world measurement.

Butch, thermal expansion in metal is a constant - it goes up, it comes down. At least within our usage, our metals will not grow and stay grown like a souffle. So that don't enter into this.

Guillermo, your framing of the tolerance issue is correct and not at all ridiculous: an instrument is considered to read to the next decimal after its resolution, i.e. a decent digital micrometer resolving to fifty millionths is good to ten-thousandths, while a digital caliper resolving to half-thousandths can be trusted to a thousandth. (And that's if the thing hasn't ever got knocked, and when handled by a guy with plenty of experience.)

 

I'll offer that our several years' worth of discussion on this has flipped pretty equally between a few folks' dissatisfaction with what we currently use and a few folks' - sometimes the same folks' - dissatisfaction with what alternatives are proposed or implemented.

 

I'll join the chorus here: Tex got it right.

 

Duf

[Fast Freddie]

I feel psychic. Many months ago I pondered the question of what would happen if the new $12 FK motor was better than the PD motor. I was told it would not be. OOPS!! It looks like now we're finding out what quality control is all about. Trying to invalidate the HR motor in every way possible if for no other reason then it's competitive at an economical cost. Some racers and I include myself, don't want to spend $1000 just to get 4-5 exceptional PD motors while we have little problem spending $100 to get a couple of HR motors that can compete with the PDs. The HR motor proved how good it could be in the hands of some exceptional racers like Matt Bruce, Greg Fox and Bud Bartos. Both the PD and HR got a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finish at the R4/7. Bucks Down Racers now have an equal chance to compete with the Evil Bucks Racers, sounds fair to me. Hooray for saving money AND having fun!!

[Samiam]

 It has not been proven the Hawk is faster or better than the PD. So far it looks like they are neck and neck. And wasn't that the original intention of this mix of motors? To have a choice of allowed motors that were all within a certain performance criteria. When there are HRs on ALL podium positions in ALL the classes they are allowed then this brouhaha can continue. Till then this is starting to sound like a "Is Big Foot Real?" conversation.

[Guillermo Suar]

 
 
Guillermo, you must have not read my post where I qualified my findings and stated that an accurate instrument needed to be used for measurement. I have also stated that I will test more, but in the end, does it matter? Do any of us think that the BoD is going to make any changes? What can they do about it?

 

 All they can do is to ask the manufacturer if there has been any spec change since the motor was approved. If the specs are still the same it's not the BOD mission to became the quality control department for the Chinese factory (in mi opinion of course).

[Pat Skeggs]

Sam I guess you don't get the Discovery channel.Bigfoot lives!.

[Noose]

Uh in case you guys missed it, a Hawk Retro right out of the package was torn down and passed. This was done around 2 weeks ago and posted here.

It was done in accordance with the previous statement made that random checks would be made.

[Gator Bob]

"Nominal"

 

BTW, Gauge is a measurement of the bare 'non-insulated' conductor.....the ''wire' has insulation on it, how is anyone removing that to 'really' measure the gauge.

If it is 'burned' it changes state but doesn't disappear. 

 

Also ....What does 'Passed Spec' really mean?  

Factual Example: If someone gets claimed and the motor is found to be a 64/63/64t ... who gets the money?

 

Jus sayin....