1441 replies to this topic

[Gator Bob]

......... Till then this is starting to sound like a "Is Big Foot Real?" conversation.

 

YES!!!  

 

[Brian Russo]

If the company or companies manufacturing the motors are ISO Certified and Compliant the should have printed procedures on how they perform quality control on this product.Also there should be a written record of first PC. Inspection on a production run of these products.A good company will supply these records to any supplier at no cost .This was put in place to guarantee consistency in quality in high volume production runs.
Pappy

[Noose]

Speaking as a Lead Auditor and a Quality manager, your statement Brian is not totally correct.  ISO 9001 or any of the ISO standards, such as those specific to the auto industry don't guarantee anything except there will be a system in place in accordance with the standards requirements.  They do not guarantee quality.  The standard will assist a company in recognizing where they might have problems and a system in place to deal with complaints, etc.   They might also have a system in place to determine rejects and quarantine them BUT it does not mean they will not have them.

 

If it worked as well as it was intended there would be no recalls in the auto industry.

[Brian Russo]

I know Joe ,in a perfect world with this system in place and operating there should be no Quality problems .But there is the Human Factor,the Financial Factor which always affect quality.There should be a written record of a first PC. Inspection of a first run product filed somewhere.
It will list all called out Dimensions and how to inspect each Dimension.This was how we were required to operate as per ISO Standards.
Pappy

[Noose]

You make an assumption that people that make slot car parts are going to spend the money to get ISO certified and then the money to maintain certification.  On top of that, depending on the industry you are in, you are then subject to having to have other standards in place and the cost for implementing and auditing those.

 

The slot car world is miniscule as compared to the real world of business and I seriously doubt anyone would lay out tens of thousands of dollars to get certified.
 

[Noose]

I'll also add that the industries that these motors are intended for must not think it is a quality critical issue otherwise the auto companies for sure would have mandated tighter quality control measures and in the end paid for it.

[Gator Bob]

"China".

[gascarnut]

We need consider that there is (or should be) an agreed specification between the manufacturer and the customer that must be taken into account before assessing whether or not a product is of poor quality.

 

If, for example, the agreed specification for a motor allows a tolerance of 1 turn per pole (which I would expect as a reasonable tolerance), then  a motor with 64 turns on one pole is good quality, because it is within specification.

 

If the agreed specification uses resistance values or wire length instead, then there's no real control over the number of turns anyway.

 

Similarly, if the agreed specification requires a certain minimum no-load speed, it is quite likely that the magnets will not be fully saturated.

 

Until we know exactly what was agreed between Jerry and his Chinese supplier, we should not be casting any aspersions on their QC processes.

[Noose]

Great points, Dennis. Thank you.

[Cheater]

It should also be acknowledged that production examples of products from many Chinese manufacturers very often differ from the pre-production samples supplied during the contracting process.

[Gator Bob]

"Nominal"

 

BTW, Gauge is a measurement of the bare 'non-insulated' conductor.....the ''wire' has insulation on it, how is anyone removing that to 'really' measure the gauge.

If it is 'burned' it changes state but doesn't disappear. 

 

Also ....What does 'Passed Spec' really mean?  

Factual Example: If someone gets claimed and the motor is found to be a 64/63/64t ... who gets the money?

 

Jus sayin....

 

We need consider that there is (or should be) an agreed specification between the manufacturer and the customer that must be taken into account before assessing whether or not a product is of poor quality.

 

If, for example, the agreed specification for a motor allows a tolerance of 1 turn per pole (which I would expect as a reasonable tolerance), then  a motor with 64 turns on one pole is good quality, because it is within specification.

 

If the agreed specification uses resistance values or wire length instead, then there's no real control over the number of turns anyway.

 

Similarly, if the agreed specification requires a certain minimum no-load speed, it is quite likely that the magnets will not be fully saturated.

 

Until we know exactly what was agreed between Jerry and his Chinese supplier, we should not be casting any aspersions on their QC processes.

 

Dennis,

Thanks for expanding on my question.

 

BoD,

What is the current specification/inspection criteria when the word 'passed' is used?

I would think Mike Swiss would know based on him doing the bulk of the testing as well as his relationship with Jerry and the Hawk Retro.

[MSwiss]

What is the current specification/inspection criteria when the word 'passed' is used?
I would think Mike Swiss would know based one him doing the bulk of the testing as well as his relationship with Jerry and the Hawk Retro.

Zero time now.
 
Maybe tonight I'll post if I'm not too busy.

[JerseyJohn]

So what's the big deal here over a 12-buck motor?
 
I have been trying to hold off commenting on the issues with RH windings, etc. My opinions are these.

• It's a cheap, mass-produced Chinese manufactured motor.
• The specs for all mass produced motors should allow a plus or minus 1 turn per poll.

The REAL reason for all of this bulls&&& is there are certain people and groups that want and wish this motor to fail, plain and simple, and they will look for any anomaly to do so.
 
So I ask, if I find a Puppy Dog with windings off are we going to stop using them??? what if a PD is found to have timing outside the 25 degrees +/- 3 degrees. Should all of them then be banned? I don't think so.
 
We are talking about racing slot cars here, not heart surgery. Guys this is comical...

[slotcarone]

JJ's last line says it all IMO!!!

[kvanpelt]

So what's the big deal here over a 12-buck motor?
 
I have been trying to hold off commenting on the issues with RH windings, etc. My opinions are these.

• It's a cheap, mass-produced Chinese manufactured motor.
• The specs for all mass produced motors should allow a plus or minus 1 turn per poll.

The REAL reason for all of this bulls&&& is there are certain people and groups that want and wish this motor to fail, plain and simple, and they will look for any anomaly to do so.
 
So I ask, if I find a Puppy Dog with windings off are we going to stop using them??? what if a PD is found to have timing outside the 25 degrees +/- 3 degrees. Should all of them then be banned? I don't think so.
 
We are talking about racing slot cars here, not heart surgery. Guys this is comical...

 

John,

 

I took the liberty of editing your post. I hope you do not mind!

[Bernie]

@ Kevin:  

   

[The Groove]

I cannot believe that people think it OK that a motor is out of specs. We don't need a cheaper motor, we need a better motor of quality that you can count on to be consistent.

I do not want to race against a motor that may have a turn or two less winds or bigger wire or a smaller blank!!! Would it be OK if I ran a Big Dog arm its close to same in size? Or maybe an X12 it fits in the can??

[JerseyJohn]

Rich,

How do you know the Puppy Dogs are all in spec with winding AND timing. Why do we list the timing on PD as nominal, which means plus or minus?
 
People have drawn a line in the sand over this motor which is hypocritical considering the allowance of timing and air gap anomaly with the Puppy Dog. Yet we didnt ban it.
 
HOW MANY COMPLAIN OF SPENDING $50 ON A TURD PD? HOW MANY PDS DO YOU BUY UNTIL YOU GET A GOOD ONE?
 
This is an issue worth discussing.
 
​Now we get a 12-dollar motor that performs really well and you all whine and complain instead of being thankful. This motor is not the second coming. I have a few smokin' hot PDs in my box. I've also tossed at least 20 that we turds. At $50 a pop that REALLY pisses me off... 
 
So my final opinion is this: It's an IRRA™ motor. It's an approved the motor, most like the motor, so we are using the motor, so if you don't like the motor then don't use it, or just stay home and knit yourself a diaper.

[kvanpelt]

I would also like one of these unbiased truth seekers to take their worst performing PD motor, and more importantly, their best performing PD motor and tear them down and give us a very detailed inspection report of your findings of any differences between the two motors.
 

I cannot believe that people think it OK that a motor is out of specs. We don't need a cheaper motor, we need a better motor of quality that you can count on to be consistent.

I do not want to race against a motor that may have a turn or two less winds or bigger wire or a smaller blank!!! Would it be OK if I ran a Big Dog arm its close to same in size? Or maybe an X12 it fits in the can??

 
Rich, I believe we are facing that same lack of tolerance with the motors that are not named Retro Hawk! Why do you think we needed to buy as many motors as we do to get those few good ones?
 
I would rather buy thirty $12 Retro Hawk motors than thirty $52 PDs in search of a few good motors.
 
My first choice would be to buy three $100 blueprinted motors from the likes of FastOnes or Pro Slot with tagged/epoxied arms. It would eliminate a lot of the BS, but knowing our group as I do, probably not all of it!

[The Groove]

How do you know the Puppy Dogs are all in spec with winding AND timing. Why do we list the timing on PD as nominal, which means plus or minus?
 
People have drawn a line in the sand over this motor which is hypocritical considering the allowance of timing and air gap anomaly with the Puppy Dog. Yet we didnt ban it.
 
HOW MANY COMPLAIN OF SPENDING $50 ON A TURD PD? HOW MANY PDS DO YOU BUY UNTIL YOU GET A GOOD ONE?
 
This is an issue worth discussing.
 
​Now we get a 12-dollar motor that performs really well and you all whine and complain instead of being thankful. This motor is not the second coming. I have a few smokin' hot PDs in my box. I've also tossed at least 20 that we turds. At $50 a pop that REALLY pisses me off... 
 
So my final opinion is this: It's an IRRA™ motor. It's an approved the motor, most like the motor, so we are using the motor, so if you don't like the motor then don't use it, or just stay home and knit yourself a diaper.

John,

The word Nominal was to be removed as you can see in the written rules below the pictures of the motors it says that can't be over 30 degrees of timing.

As for your diaper comment I will not stoop to your level.

[The Groove]

My first choice would be to buy three $100 blueprinted motors from the likes of FastOnes or Pro Slot with tagged/epoxied arms. It would eliminate a lot of the BS, but knowing our group as I do, probably not all of it!

My first choice would be the same as yours!

[Brian Russo]

And, Joe, that's why there is such an inconsistency with all the motors... PDs, Falcons, Hawks.

How many motors does Pro Slot and JK produce in a year?

Just curious.

Pappy

[Noose]

Brian,

I have no clue but numbers are not what drive the quality of something.

[Bernie]

My take on all of this is there is no way to make everyone happy. Some just hate FK motors period. I'm OK with that.

I have a hard time believing that ALL PDs have the same timing and winds on EVERY arm. I am also pretty sure that all F7s & TSRs do not have the the exact number of turns on the arm either. These motors are just cheap mass-produced items and they are what they are.

With the price of a PD and the refurbing needed to get them "right" you are approaching built C-can pricing! Opening up the rules to build your own motors will create even more problems IMHO.

To be sure, IRRA racing (TM or LLC) is not perfect and never will be. I say, let's race, do the best you can with the resources you have, and have some fun!

[Greg VanPeenen]

This is the truth of the matter, no spin at all.

In slot car racing (all of slot car racing every class) it is an Armature War. Finding that one really fast armature. Then finding the set up that arm works best in would be number two. Period end of sentence!

All cheap DC electric motors, and yes, fifty dollars is cheap, have the same problem - maybe one in a hundred is a lot better then the rest. Does not matter if it's made in America or China. That is the nature of the beast. Armatures made in the USA by ProSlot are probably better then the very cheap stuff made in China, but there is a plus and minus built into the winding machines that both use. and the timing on the comms used by Pro Slot varies; it's not even the same in every segment on the same comm most of the time. Even worse in the motors made in China.

Want a really good sealed motor all American made and exact in every spec. Then bust out your wallet and get ready to get off a hundred and fifty or more for each motor. THEN GUESS WHAT. They still will not be all the same. The more you pay the closer they get but even when you get up to open motors. THERE ARE STILL THOSE REALLY GOOD MOTORS.
 
This is a hobby or a sport, what ever you want to call it, where grown men race toy cars. You have a choice to race or not to race. You have a choice of what class or classes you run. In Retro you have a choice of what motor to run. If you don't like the choices, go fishing or play golf.
 
I plan on Racing retro cars and I plan on using Pro Slot and JK motors.
 
See you at the races,
 
Greg VanPeenen