1441 replies to this topic

[Samiam]

Maybe we can convince John H to do a run of a few hundred of these: http://slotblog.net/...r-on-ebay-sold/

 

Retro-Open anyone?

[Rick]

Here is the perfect place:

 

But, what does it all mean?................

[Phil Hackett]

             

 

(OK... edited by adding the following screenshots.)

 

 

 

 

 

[Gator Bob]

 

 

Bob,

Like GVP alluded to in the topmost quote, you're expecting too much from a cheap electric motor.

 

Mike, I think you are missing my point.

 

A buck and a quarter or a buck and a half and you'll get something precise.

 

Want them all to run the same?

 

Absolutely not. I want 'mine' to run the Best!

 

Expect $1K each, because only extensive track testing and tossing out motors will guarantee that.

 

That's silly.

 

This is cheap racing.

 

That statement is relative based on ones financial position.

 

There isn't millions of dollars involved, thus no budget, for all the things you think should be implemented.

 

Hyperbole ...  Please name one suggestion I have made regarding stepping up the professional image (and making this game appear to have a "level playing field") that would cost over $200 per region

 

In your "World",

 

I'll quote a common phrase my good friend Chip uses frequently .... "Welcome to My world"

 

 

there would have to be guys willing to be full time, unpaid, punching bags.

 

That's funny... LOL. But anyone that wants the power and title of BoD or Regional Director comes with a cost ...  or is that a price? 

 

As far as this latest Retro Hawk nonsense, it's just that.

 

Not to racers they are 'invested' in $50 slotcar motors. Thankfully, I'm not one of those. 

To give a 'real World' example again: My NC/VA friends were running $15,000 built 350 CI 2BBL Chevy motors in NASCAR LMSC... Then NASCAR 'approved' the "Sealed" GM/Chevy Crate Motor with a 4BBL that cost $5500 and on most tracks could run with or outrun the Built motor. In all their brilliance all it did was piss a lot of racing drug addicts off and of course had the opposite effect of the intent of "keeping the cost of short track racing down". Now they had to have 'Both' kinds of motors to be competitive at different tracks.

 

Same thing happened down here in the Florida ProTruck series. 305 CI Built vs. 350 CI Crate motors. I've said this before ... "been there, done that".   

 

The TM BOD has always approved motors based on the realistic manufacturing capabilities of whatever company involved.

 

We added "nominal" to the timing description of all the motors because it was well apparent all Puppy Dogs were not 25 degrees.

At $50 they should be considering it's just a jacked up $13 motor. With a good fixture to set a quality comm in place before epoxying it in place and reasonable workers who put some skin in the game and get paid by the piece or get docked for f-in them up the problem would be gone. I've had 'real' race cars And run manufacturing shops from Job Shop Prototyping to Full Assembly line Production so don't try to BS me with  "realistic manufacturing capabilities of whatever company involved"

 

Just today on Slot Talk, on FB, Ron Hershman posted;

Why do you care so much about what Ron says ... he doesn't work here any more.

 

The problem in most all motors is not the armature per say but the Set-up. Now in the Puppy Dog motors, the biggest variance in the motors is in the set-ups. The air gaps vary, the magnet strength varies, the alignment of oilites and brush hoods can vary. In the arms the timing can vary about 3 degrees on average,

 

 One highly technical racer who has commented here today, who purchased 8 arms with another racer in the hopes of resurrecting some dud motors,

when he reads Ron's claim of  "timing can vary about 3 degrees on average", I hope he doesn't blow his coffee, or whatever beverage, out of his nose

on to the keyboard. LOL

 

Blow Chunks.

 

PS- and as Tex mentioned a few days ago and someone else alluded to, the TSR D3's and F7's don't all have exactly 65T.

 

Probably all true but not germane to the point I'm trying to make.

 

The first one I dewound yesterday had 1 pole with 62 turns.

 

That IS relevant to the point ... WHAT IS THE SPEC if a motor gets claimed/protested and .... who is going to check it.

 

The 2nd motor did have 65 turns on all 3 poles.

 

Dan should hire the little Chinese girl that wound that one.

 

 

Edited by Gator Bob, 25 March 2014 - 11:13 AM.

[Rick]

Crate motor with a 4BBL that cost $5,500 and on most tracks could run with or outrun the built motor. In all their brilliance all it did was piss a lot of racing drug addicts off and of course had the opposite effect of the intent of "keeping the cost of short track racing down".
 
Same thing happened down here in the Florida ProTruck series. 305 CI built vs 350 CI crate motors.
 
I've said this before... "Been there, done that".  

 
Bob has walked the walk, TADA! ... Please, Bob, don't bring real life into this discussion. It may create reality...

[John Streisguth]

Gee Rick, my comments about HO tires have nothing to do with the current situation on the cost of tires for retro racing, but this is relevant?  I think this is even less so.

[Cheater]

That weird statement has nothing to do with Ron building an organization does it?

No sir, it does not.

It has to do with this question: when the rules of an organization (in which someone has no membership, vote, or ownership stake) don't align with one's personal preferences, why do so many insist and demand that the organization has to change the rules to suit those preferences? Why isn't creating a new organization to promote those personal preferences almost never considered to be a valid option?

Why do so many insist that IRRA™ has to be "all things to all people"?

[Pappy]

Back in about 1965 or '66 I purchased a Globe motor because that was the fastest and the best motor and you needed it to win. It cost $20 (I was making 50 cents and hour working in my grandmother's hobby shop). The motor was made in Dayton, Ohio. According to the chart that motor would cost $104.00 today. They did not all run the same speed; mine was a dud. One of the racers' dads bought a whole case (24) of them looking for a really good one for his son. I'd almost bet some of those motors had a turn missing or a wire a little longer on a pole here and there, too. So nothing has changed, same old thing, different motor.

 

Answer me this, if I get a motor that has 64 turns of wire on two of the poles, does that help me or hurt me. Does it give me more RPM or less, how does it affect my torque? Does one wire being a little longer or shorter help me or hurt me? A chain is only has strong as it's weakest link so if one pole is a little faster does it help you any if the other two poles can't keep up?

[Cheater]

Yet there are a significant number of racers who seemingly insist they have some God-granted natural right to demand change in the IRRA™ rules to suit their personal preferences.

 And I would really like to know where those people have come by such a belief. Can anyone explain where this attitude comes from?

Could it be backlash from racers to members of a BoD that pushes their personal preferences?

Since so many exhibit the passion of religious zealots, perhaps this comparison will resonate. Would anyone here go into a church of which they were not a member and demand that the church's teachings and beliefs be changed to match theirs? (I doubt it, but I could be wrong.) No, most anyone would seek out another church that was in sync with their beliefs, or perhaps start a new church to promote them.

OMC-Bizarre statement

But that's not how many people behave in the world of slot racing...

Do you mean like... "our way or the highway"?

No, sir. I mean race under the rules as written, or don't race, your choice. No one is forcing a racer to race under IRRA™ rules.

Like it or not, racers who participate in racing using IRRA™ rules have no ownership stake in the organization and no vote in its operation, though racers' opinions are always solicited and always considered.

Bob, lets say you buy a piece of land that isn't subject to a zoning commission and isn't bound by codicils you agreed to when you purchased the property. And then you build yourself a house on it.

Does someone driving past it have a right to demand you paint your house the color they prefer?

 

Or lets say you own a restaurant, with a dish on the menu I can't stand to eat or even think about (liver would do it for me).

 

Do I have the right to demand that you remove that item from your restaurant's menu?

[Pappy]

Hell, I thought the board was getting rich off of this and that's why you were able to retire, Cheater.   

[Cheater]

If only that were true...

[John Streisguth]

To Gator Bob: how long would it take you to "blueprint" a PD motor, and what would you charge to do that work?

 

This is a serious question...

[John Miller]

No, sir. I mean race under the rules as written, or don't race, your choice. No one is forcing a racer to race under IRRA™ rules.

Like it or not, racers who participate in racing using IRRA™ rules have no ownership stake in the organization and no vote in its operation, though racers' opinions are always solicited and always considered.

 

Cheater,

 

Just make sure that you guys enforce the rules as written. Currently, several people including Mike Swiss have found the Retro Hawk not to comply with the rules from a turns per pole specification. So, we have proven that the Retro Hawk does not meet the rule. What will happen if a motor is protested and found to violate the rule? Thus far, I have heard that the word "nominal" (whatever that means) may be applied, and that’s fine with me as long the rule is amended to cover this manufacturing shortcoming.

 

What I find interesting is that all of this occurred simply because I took a peek under the cover of a Retro Hawk motor. I also find it interesting that a BoD member had knowledge that the motor did not meet the turns per pole specification and made no attempt to consider the amendment of the rule until my findings came to light.

[Brian Russo]

Which motor is more secure from tampering?

Pappy (five children, seven grandchildren... I've earned the nickname Pappy)

[John Streisguth]

Cheaters will find a way to cheat, no matter what...

[Rick]

I never had a reason to question the F7 and TSR in the past, but the few I have de-wound were always 65-65-65. Take that for what it's worth....?

[Brian Russo]

Yes, John, I know, but no one wants to answer my question. It is relevant to the discussion.

Pappy

[John Streisguth]

Actually, that pretty much is the answer... some say it's easy to tweak the FK motors without detection, some say it's easy to detect tampering. Some say the seals prevent tampering with the PDs, some say those are easy to work around. Not something I'm going to worry too much about until someone ponys up the money for a motor protest.

 

I'll put my energy into doing what I can on my own stuff to make them as fast as possible. I know mine are legal. If someone cheats to beat me, well, they really didn't.

[Brian Russo]

I couldn't agree with you more John.I know very little about building or Modifying Motors.I know how to set them up in a car pretty good and that's all I need to know which is just fine with me.I need to spend more time on my driving skills not on figuring out how to circumvent the rules.I asked the question because which ever motor it is could something done to make it more secure?I enjoy racing because of the building and tinkering,the comeradary ,the traveling ,the racing itself.Better driving skills will always make your motor faster,so that where I try to devote my slot car time to
Thank you for letting me vent
Pappy

[Samiam]

Ahh HeII.....came home for lunch but now I'm sitting here dewinding arms.

 

Turn count to follow.

 

OK,here is my report.....

 

Falcon 7 Yellow label.

pole1-65 turns

   "   2-65 turns

   "   3-65 turns

 

But here's the kicker....ALL THREE WIRE LENGTHS WERE DIFFERENT!

 

The shortest one 2 turns worth of wire less than the longest. So this whole thing is a search for Big Foot. You guys want to keep looking for BF go ahead. I'm convinced it's a legend conjured up to scare people. I ain't scared.

[Brian Russo]

Sam I was thrashing today and I had 3 of your ash trays lined up with parts in them.I have short fingernails so these are a blessing for me.Getting ready for Chicopee,can't wait.
Pappy

[Samiam]

Can't type ,I'm dewinding arms

 

Glad you have put them to use.

 

More results to follow.........

 

OK,next one:

 

TSR Falcon7 White label.

 

All poles 65 turns and same length wire.

 

2nd. TSR F7 W.L.:

 

All poles 65 turns.

 

Two poles longer by 2 turns.(of wire length)

 

Actual  variance in length is 2in. Number of turns will vary depending if you count starting or ending the wind.

 

So what does it all mean?

 

I don't have any HRs to count. The one I got as a handout at the FB still has brush life after 6 races.

[John Streisguth]

Sam, what do you mean by "all poles 65 turns, two poles longer by two turns"??

[Samiam]

John,

Two poles had longer wire that made two turns on the empty arm. That's why I added the actual length of the additional wire. I wonder how much or how little of a real life difference the variance in wire length makes?

 

And when I say" real life", I mean in the slot car not our actual day to day "REAL" lives.   

[John Miller]

Given that each pole has the same number of turns the second and third pole will always have more wire when machine wound.

Don't get this confused with a CNC winder that winds nearly a perfect pattern on each pole. A good example is the CNC winder that ProSlot uses for its puppy dog arms. Those are very, very neatly wound. The FK type motors have the wire just thrown on there.