1441 replies to this topic

[Samiam]

Given that each pole has the same number of turns the second and third pole will always have more wire when machine wound.

John,

I only got that result 66.6% of the time.
 
Seriously though, with these fifty cent motors we really can't expect more than what we're getting. And with six races on my HR, I got way more than expected.

[John Streisguth]

So here's a question: if the second and third poles would normally have more wire, if the last pole would had one less turn, then the actual wire length would be the same? (more or less) And would that make much of a difference in the way the motor runs? 

 

Are we chasing our tails here???

[Rick]

This is a good place for the Serenity Prayer and it is what it is..........right? I see it, like 'em, hate 'em or don't give a chit  They won't be going away.............

[kvanpelt]

"Who is John Galt?"

[Gator Bob]

"Who is John Galt?"

 

 

 ... or Xu Xing ?

 

I'll be back to answer questions or comments from my earlier post.

[John Miller]

John,

I only got that result 66.6% of the time.
 
Seriously though, with these fifty cent motors we really can't expect more than what we're getting. And with six races on my HR, I got way more than expected.

 

I didn't state that we should expect more.  My statement is a constant.  With a machine wound motor the first pole of the stator will have the minimal amount of wire and the subsequent two poles will always have more. It's a spatial concept that you need to understand.

[John Miller]

So here's a question: if the second and third poles would normally have more wire, if the last pole would had one less turn, then the actual wire length would be the same? (more or less) And would that make much of a difference in the way the motor runs? 

 

Are we chasing our tails here???

 

Actually, now you are getting the concept.  If the last pole on a flagrantly wound arm has one less turn, the balance would be more accurate and the resistance would be near the same.  This is why resistance is a rather clumsy way to determine if an armature is in specification, but who am I to question any processes.

[Gator Bob]

No sir, it does not.

It has to do with this question: when the rules of an organization (in which someone has no membership, vote, or ownership stake) don't align with one's personal preferences, why do so many insist and demand that the organization has to change the rules to suit those preferences?

 

Greg, I don't keep tabs on who is trying to change the 'rules' and , believe it or not my intent is to 'help' provide clarification of the rules, procedures and the professional appearance of 'your' organization. I've been banging my shoe on the desk of the BoD on this for 2 years and 11 months. Sometimes I see a little acceptance and progress after the BoD kicks and screams at me for being Anti-IRRATM.  Go back and look at all my stuff from Race Reports, standardized event coverage, Clarifying rules, to having an on-line tech sheet to partially fill out before racers get to the track with that being the last thing they want to do.

Progress?

Thank you to:

Mike McMasters for the sign-up sheets and great reporting and coverage.

Joe "Noose" for the great reporting and enforcement.

Greg for going to the 'big' events and the outstanding photos and timely commentary.

 

Why isn't creating a new organization to promote those personal preferences almost never considered to be a valid option?

 

Of course it is... How do I know?

When Robert Brooks the owner of Hooters and the USRA Hooters ProCup Series passed away and his surviving son could give a damn about racing. He loved 'golf' and Chip bought the whole thing, everything except the naming rights which were not for sale. Why? to give Matt, Trevor Bayne and many 'kids' names and faces you see in big time NASCAR now a place to race. To help with the financial burden of all the costs of operations and TV production he took on some partners and the now BoD didn't agree on many things Chip wanted to do to promote and save one of the greats stock car gigs ever created and the partner's money was rubber. Of course they hated the fact that the majority owners son was racing it the series. Did Chip call me to consult, ask for my suggestions or opinion, bounce ideas and vent about the bleeding 2,3 or 4 times a week? Did he ask me to come up and help him with his former NASCAR Bush East (K&N East) team? Did we go together to the Woods Brothers shop to by the car? Plan to go in as partners on a famous short track in NC? Consult at Strutmasters HQ? 

The short answer is Yes.

So why the *** do you bring this all **** up Bob?

The Truth is to show credibility, blow my own ego horn, and tell you that IRRA in any form is mouse nuts compared to what goes on in the "Real World" of racing.

Why do so many insist that IRRA™ has to be "all things to all people"?

 

It is what adrenaline junky racers do, face it or retire.

 

 

No, sir. I mean race under the rules as written, or don't race, your choice. No one is forcing a racer to race under IRRA™ rules.

There is room for improvement and I know I have a choice.

Like it or not, racers who participate in racing using IRRA™ rules have no ownership stake in the organization and no vote in its operation, though racers' opinions are always solicited and always considered.

Bob, lets say you buy a piece of land that isn't subject to a zoning commission and isn't bound by codicils you agreed to when you purchased the property. And then you build yourself a house on it.

What if it is bound by crocodiles or gators?  

Does someone driving past it have a right to demand you paint your house the color they prefer?

Yes, if they bring a color chip, I like it and they pay for the labor and materials.

 

Or lets say you own a restaurant, with a dish on the menu I can't stand to eat or even think about (liver would do it for me).

 

Do I have the right to demand that you remove that item from your restaurant's menu?

No, just don't order it .. that was easy!

 

 

To Gator Bob: how long would it take you to "blueprint" a PD motor, and what would you charge to do that work?

 

This is a serious question...

I have never unsealed or blueprinted a PD but would assume it would be very similar to a C can motor.

Time?---- If it was my own motor what ever it took, the longer the better. In the past ... a couple of hours on the can, a couple of hours on the endbell, a couple of hours assembly, take it apart again, think how I can do it better.  I like fiddling with motors and want the fun to last. Go look at my posts in "MY Built Motors"

Money? --- I don't do it for money, only for myself, my son or friends.

 

Which motor is more secure from tampering?

Pappy (five children, seven grandchildren... I've earned the nickname Pappy)

My guess is the FK because it can never be opened and then go undetected.

 

Ahh HeII.....came home for lunch but now I'm sitting here dewinding arms.

 

Turn count to follow.

 

OK,here is my report.....

 

Falcon 7 Yellow label.

pole1-65 turns

   "   2-65 turns

   "   3-65 turns

 

But here's the kicker....ALL THREE WIRE LENGTHS WERE DIFFERENT!

 

The shortest one 2 turns worth of wire less than the longest. So this whole thing is a search for Big Foot. You guys want to keep looking for BF go ahead. I'm convinced it's a legend conjured up to scare people. I ain't scared.

 

OH No! ... Not BigFoot again ..  

[John Streisguth]

Bob, the reason I ask is that I have neither the time nor the skills to work on motors.  And to pay someone for that level of detail work will undoubtedly cost a fair amount of money.  Part of the reason I race the retro classes is the sealed motors.  Would you race retro on an every 2 to 3 week basis if you were allowed to build your own motors?  I race that often because I DON'T have to.  Without sealed motors, I would not have become involved to the point I have been. 

 

It ain't broke....

[Samiam]

Hey Bob,

 I haven't seen a Big Foot truck at a show in quite a while. Grave Digger is Top Dog at the shows these days. Maybe BF will come out of hiding.

 

What was the car count at the last big regional race that allows built/blueprinted motors?

 

That so many people show up to race Retro answers all the questions about motor quality,equality,security,value,fairness,cost,etc.....

 

Question: How many of you would race an IRRA class that allowed built/blueprinted motors? The Retro Angle Winder class is dead so how about running built PDs in that? 

[George Blaha]

Hey Sam,

 

Hey, I didn't know that the Retro Angle Winder class was 'la mort' .........I was waiting for the IRRAtm it to kick into high gear! Great idea to get it going! You hit on a place in the IRRAtm that may be for the higher performance minded Retro racer. This makes an alternative to the Retro Pro Class which the IRRAtm does not have rules.

 

Shakey George

[JerseyJohn]

Retro anglewinder with open PD,s Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Noose]

John that's called Retro Pro.  Well with Big Dogs and X12s.  They will be running at RetroPalooza and the Fall Brawl.  SCRRA Rules.

[Samiam]

John that's called Retro Pro.  Well with Big Dogs and X12s.  They will be running at RetroPalooza and the Fall Brawl.  SCRRA Rules.

Joe,

 Was looking to use IRRA rules and PD arms. A chance to let all the motor tinkerers have their day in the sun. Who knows,all those so called PD duds may find new life?

The heavier car,different bodies and slower motor will set it apart from it's West Coast cousin. Plus it keeps the IRRA pedigree pure.

[JohnnySlotcar]

How about a "retro car open" starting with regional weekly/bi-weekly races to test the theory. With no "braggin" rights, just run what to brung to test it out. Slugs that were useless could provide the tinkerers a chance to shine!

[jimht]

Retro Pro with scratchbuilt anglewinder rules and races already exist.

"LLC" , Buena Park, et al, climb on your already existing local bandwagon or haul your own into the fray, Pro Slot motors with Puppy Dog arms, Big Dog arms, Group 12 arms, whatever.

 

Those of you that have spent umpteen $ to buy the Ultimate Golden Turd can take the Brownish colored turds and donate them or sell them to the uncounted numbers of racers that have the time and inclination to mess with every conceivable part of a slot car that can be messed with.

 

Schedule that extra race and see how many of those there are that are not already so ragged out from just having to come up with chassis and bodies in the sealed motor classes that they have time to add rebuilding your rejects to their agenda.

 

On second thought, maybe just consider donating them...seems as if selling turds would not be all that profitable.

[Samiam]

Not looking to create a new class or run another org's rules. The IRRA has a rule set for this type of car: http://www.irraslotr...inder_rules.pdf .

 Looking to change the allowed motor to built PDs. Same IRRA PD motor specs. Only changes would be copper hardware and BB in end bell and magnet shims. Keeping the motor PD based allows racers to use existing stock. Build it yourself or send it to your favorite motor guy. Or have it "Turbo-Blasted"  

 

George and JJ are on board. Who else?

[stemmy]

If your allowed full bearings and shunts I'd definitely be interested.

[Samiam]

If your allowed full bearings and shunts I'd definitely be interested.

I'm sure all the usual motor building techniques,bells,and whistles would be allowed. Stock can,end bell,tagged arm,and magnets. No big buck parts. Just careful blueprinting of stock parts.

 

Here's a nice litter for sale: http://slotblog.net/...ro-slot-motors/

[Pappy]

As it is they have a hard time getting enough racers in the anglewinder class to have turn marshal. This would even be worse.

[Noose]

Hey anyone that wants to start that class up be my guest.  Run with it.  I quit racing because of the motor work back in 71. I got into retro because there was no motor work.  But have fun.

[stemmy]

I'm sure all the usual motor building techniques,bells,and whistles would be allowed. Stock can,end bell,tagged arm,and magnets. No big buck parts. Just careful blueprinting of stock parts.
 
Here's a nice litter for sale: http://slotblog.net/...ro-slot-motors/

good luck getting the higher ups to agree on a new class.

[Samiam]

 This would even be worse.

 

Or better? I keep hearing about how guys won't race Retro 'cause they are not allowed to build their own motors. Who knows,Fast Freddie may even participate.

[Noose]

Stemmy, you don't need any higher ups to agree on new class.  Go start your own with these. 

[Fast Freddie]

With all the talk about the HR FK motor I thought I would go back and see how the R4/7 GTC FK and PD top 8 performed. Sort of a comparison. The PD lap total was 292.8, the FK was 283.7. Only a 9.1 lap total difference but then it gets unusual. In the GTC PD top 8 there are 5-4.8s, 2-4.7s, and 1-4.6 best lap times. In the GTC FK top 8 there is 5-4.8s and 3-4.9s. Not bad for a $12 motor. In fact the winner of the FK race would have placed 5th in the PD race right behind Matt Bruce.