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PS4002FK quality control issues


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#1 usadar

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 05:16 AM

Adjusting and lining-up endbell hardwears.
Gluing a metal-bushing at an endbell.
Gluing/soldering a metal-bushing to an can-end.
Recrimping the magnet tabs and gluing the magnets.

We just race PSFK just for IRRA® Can-Am Plus, racing mostly IRRA® Can-Am and F1 here in Tokyo.

Since last autumn, we haven't raced Can-Am Plus; going to race in May this year.
When we raced PSFK motors for Can-Am Plus a couple of times last year, we didn't find the above problems except for misalignment of the brush hardware.

 

The above-mentioned problems of PSFK are recent phenominons?

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#2 Zippity

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 06:20 AM

If doing so evens out the playing field, what possible harm can be done?



#3 Cheater

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 07:38 AM

Participants who don't want to screw with motors potentially will find another hobby to pursue.

 

Yours is the racer's perspective, Zip, and history proves that only accomodating the racers' perspective hasn't worked to grow participation in the hobby.


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#4 The Number of

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 07:55 AM

Haruki, The racers at MMW for the Group F cars have seen all the things you listed for over a year now. The list you have has been the same MINOR problems with them for a long time. It has just getting more press with the recent discussions regarding the JKRH comparisons 


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#5 MSwiss

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:01 AM

Haruki,

 

Some of the above stuff, like gluing in the endbell bushing, is just a preventative measure.

We race this motor quite a bit in hardbody racing, and I don't ever remember seeing any issues with the can bearing where it would make sense to solder it in.

The magnet issue might be a more recent phenomena. I've seen it once before with motor in hardbodies, and it just happened to me Wednesday night, while going to install a motor in a wing car.

It must be a semi-regular occurrence, as when someone mentioned it on OWH recently, they got a quick response, with a fix using snap ring pliers. I stopped by my local Harbor Freight yesterday and picked up a pair for $3.99. Hopefully. I'll be able to fix it.

FWIW, I had at least one or two Puppy Dog bag motors with the rubbing magnet issue.


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#6 Pablo

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:59 AM

Use the Geary PSFK tool from Swiss, a Trinity heat sink from Tony P, a fan cooler between heats and/or an aluminum heat sucker from R-Geo.

Are comm coolers legal? Take every legal precaution you can.

 

How effective is CA glue on the endbell material?


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#7 John C Martin

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:25 AM

A bigger fault I see now is some don't have any end play. The last one I tapped to help tightness, it destroyed the endbell bushing, first..,
and sometimes the over sized brush hoods.



#8 tonyp

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:29 AM

They are pretty bad.
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#9 Half Fast

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:01 AM

Seems like they are more trouble than they are worth.

 

Cheers,


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#10 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:13 AM

Yes, they're pretty bad and (IMHO) not worth the effort, but when the raceway decides to make it the only motor for the only class you learn to live with it. We learned to suffer with the Deathstar's numerous faults and I have to admit that a part of my "annoyance" with the 4002FK is that I have to fix just as many faults. The good news being that the motors are smaller and faster.

 

A big "Thanks, Mate" to both Chicagoland and R-Geo for the alignment tools.

 

Suffering is good for the soul they say.


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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:18 AM

Seems like they are more trouble than they are worth.

 

They are a good motor for our hardbody racing.

 

The superior brakes, over a Retro Hawk, are a big deal with 180-220 gram cars.

 

That's not to say we couldn't use the JK Hawk 6, which we do, but that motor is unsealed.


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#12 team burrito

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:20 AM

It doesn't matter to me since I rebuild them anyway. Don't you?
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#13 Half Fast

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:53 AM

After using a Retro Hawk for a couple of years I have forgotten what brakes feel like!
 
If the RH had more brakes it would be perfect.
 
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#14 mam2f

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 12:19 PM

Despite the problems, the 4002 FK is a great little motor for $15. It's very fast and has good brakes. They seem pretty durable. We race them in Can-Am every  week.
 

Other than random stalling, and weak mounting "ears" I haven't had any problems.
 

We run only with an 8 tooth pinion, so we don't have to enlarge the motor bracket hole. To my knowledge, most guys run a 9 tooth with the Retro Hawk so the hole must be enlarged.


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#15 MSwiss

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 01:04 PM

and sometimes the oversized brush hoods.

 

The front ones have seemed to all be bad, ever since Geary and I came out with our alignment tool.

I just got 20 in and I gave two or three a quick look.

Along with a motor (in the bag) with a real bad back hood, there was also another motor with an incredibly good front hood.

20160219_113352-1.jpg

20160219_113448-1.jpg


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Mike Swiss
 
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#16 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 02:55 PM

No self-respecting machine would put out work like that.


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#17 Mike Patterson

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 04:50 PM

They're probably hammered out by a bunch of women and children. Way cheaper than a fancy machine!

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#18 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:44 PM

And once in awhile they turn the lights on so the women and kids can see what they're pounding. :sarcastic_hand:
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#19 Dennis David

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 09:07 PM

Off topic but what's an alternative motor speed-wise that you can service?


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#20 Pablo

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:27 PM

Dennis, I'm unsure of your question. There are no legal "alternative" motors in any form of Retro (other than what the rules allow).


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#21 Dennis David

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:20 PM

This would not be for Retro. I am looking for a motor that's faster than a Retro Hawk that doesn't have any quality control issues but is inexpensive. Does not need to be sealed either.


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#22 Pablo

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:48 PM

Haruki, please forgive my thread drift.
 
Dennis, JK Hawk 7, $12.95.
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#23 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 12:57 AM

He said that can be serviced.

The JK Hawk 6 (30306) might be slightly faster than a Retro Hawk.

Quality might be a tiny bit better than the 4002FK.

Mike Swiss
 
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#24 Les Boyd

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 09:02 AM

Back on topic...It seems like (with all that has to or can be done to the PS 4002FK) it is a very poor idea. If so much has or needs to be done to the motor, then why? Everything that has to or needs to be done takes more time and money to get it to be competitive. And allowing for a "sealed" motor to be altered... is that not inviting cheating?

How far do you allow the alterations to go... how about in-can comm truing... can that be detected... is it allowed? You can also move the magnets in by putting glue or some kind of grout between them and the can.

This can go on and on, and the whole point is... the motor has been altered.

All these things have been done to the 16Ds and S16Ds and you only had one choice spend money to get the equipment to alter your motors or find some one that had a shop and would "fix" a motor for you... at a price.

This is why the Falcon type motor came into the slot car racing, a motor that would be very hard to modify. And IMO it has fixed one of the things that has plagued slot car racing almost from the beginning: the general perception as to can there be fair races and how much money are you willing to spend just to win.
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#25 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 09:53 AM

A bingo for Les... but right now the last boatlLoad of RHs have really been slower and/or are blowing up prematurely...

At least the PSs can be somewhat fixed by anyone... over and over again... and after that fix they seem to be more consistent than the RH whose quality control seems to lag sometimes...

So it's still a toss-up. At this moment quality-wise that's what we get for $13 or $14.

With just a little quality control and a tied comm the PS would be a hit.

#26 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:08 AM

John,

How are you identifying the ones from the "last boatload"?

I thought someone said only two blew at Ralph's race last week, running exclusively them?

And you're running them, balls out, on 14.4v.

At the recent Retro East race at HVR, on 13.7v(?), I heard they had zero failures.

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#27 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:23 AM

Last boatload... that's the ones on the wall at our track.

One experienced racer last week blew three, one in practice, and him and his son in the race...

I've noticed the last ones I bought were not as good as before.

But I did throw a wire with a PS motor in that race Fri.

So...

I agree the voltage is too high... what can you expect for $13 with 14.4 volts?
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#28 Cheater

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:41 AM

Seems to me some want champagne on a beer budget, defined as traditional C-can motor quality and rebuildability for the cost of a pair of tires. Is that realistic?
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#29 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:47 AM

I blew one of the PS FK motors last year, which was one out of six motors that I had. I was running it geared at 9/27 in a Can-Am+. Since then, I have been running them at 9/28 or 8/26. 

Overall, I like these motors. Marcus, the owner of P1 Raceway in Winter Garden, has been running them in flexi chassis for endurance races. He said that there is no problem running them at 12/38 or 12/39.
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#30 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:55 AM

Yes, Dan, they both are great in flexi. Lighter weight! 80 grams vs 100+ Retros. They'd all be great at 13 something volts also..

Like Greg says, what can we expect for the price... tires are good for one or two races... motors are usually good for several races...

#31 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:58 AM

Ah, yes.

The secret: gearing them properly.

Running them over 3-1 with small tires, they should run forever.
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#32 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:59 AM

Cannot stretch a 3" rubberband to 10" and blame the rubberband when it breaks.
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#33 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:03 AM

Two of these motors blew last night at the P-1 enduro.  One within 15 minutes of practice, the other in the race. Six cars.  

Love the brakes!

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#34 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:03 AM

Yep, gearing and voltage... will kill...


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#35 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:11 AM

PS thrown a wire at comm tab... motor turns same RPM with whatever gear ratio... Seems C.F. at 14.4 volts is the killer.

 

Of course bogging it with gear ratio too high doesn't help with heat either...

Tied comm on RH prevents this..



#36 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:37 AM

John,

 

Why don't you call Pro Slot up and explain your issue.

Maybe a 4002FK with a tied comm is a possibility, at a higher price, or maybe he'll just tell you to gear your motor correctly and/or get your track owner to lower the power.

Cheater and Matt already explained that to you.


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#37 Tim Neja

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 12:24 PM

I don't understand the need to run over 13 volts? It's simple, more voltage = more problems! Why? So you can say you've got a faster lap time? If everyone runs on the same voltage, then you're all equal anyway! :)

 

And Les nailed the reason why we hate the little re-buildable motors! They require rebuilding before you even run them! There's no savings – it will just become an arms war!! :)


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#38 Alexander Blankenship

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 06:06 PM

Can someone explain to me, since I am a novice, why you would want to run these motors, as Tim says, at higher than 13 volts???  If everyone runs the same power, how is it necessary?  


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#39 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:02 PM

Me explain to Pro Slot how to fix the problem LOL... you remember his FX flexi chassis and know the story there.

As I explained voltage and C.Fs. are the the reason for slung wires, not necessarily gear ratios IMO.

Try this - run a PS/FK on a power supply at 12 volts (it'll sling a wire real quick, no tied comm.) A Retro Hawk will not at 12 volts (comm tied). Of course they're is no load but this just shows the FKs weakness with C.F. at 14.4 volts.

I ran new FK motor tonight 8/26 no problem...
Fastest car in the B Main killed a Hawk... 9/27.

I've ask about reducing the voltage... he's thinking about it.



#40 RodneyZ

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:16 PM

The simple thing to do reduce the volts; not rocket science.


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#41 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:39 AM

I expect that raceways run 13+ volts because that's what the power supplies in general use put out (the Rivergate RDC90 lists an output of 13.6 to 14.2v). 

 

For those still working "old school" systems, automotive batteries at full charge are 13.5 and the associated battery chargers generally put out 13-14v or more (not to mention RF/AC ripple).


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#42 dalek

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 04:21 PM

Two of these motors blew last night at the P-1 enduro.  One within 15 minutes of practice, the other in the race. Six cars.  

 

The second one that Charlie referred to was mine. The motor overheated mainly because I geared it too high.

 

Also, part of the reason might have been because I had the body mounted close to the motor, so it probably wasn't getting as much air flow as it should have. 

 

The car was geared 3:1 (36/12) with .730" tires which resulted in a rollout of 4.11 (3 / .730) .

The motor package says rollout should be 4.25 to 4.50.

 

The Enduro we run asks a lot of the motor because the class requires a Cheetah 21 chassis (heavy) and GTP body (high drag) and five-minute segments.

 

Track voltage is set at 14v but actually at 3 amps is about 13.75v.

 

Amazingly, the motor finished the 16 segments of the race and was still quite fast down the straights, even after
you could smell burnt insulation.


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#43 usadar

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 07:45 PM

I expect that raceways run 13+ volts because that's what the power supplies in general use put out (the Rivergate RDC90 lists an output of 13.6 to 14.2v). 
 
For those still working "old school" systems, automotive batteries at full charge are 13.5 and the associated battery chargers generally put out 13-14v or more (not to mention RF/AC ripple).

 
If the quality of track power is good, FK motors run fine even at 14.2v, quick charge position of Rivergate power supplies backed up by powerful batteries.
 
We have had very few troubles even with GT Coupes (110 grams minimum weight under IRRA® rules) powered by TSRD3 at 14.2v, as long as cars are set up properly.
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#44 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 11:55 AM

With regard to track power, I would expect that Retro Tokyo adheres to a very high standard. The same can not be said for every raceway.
 
Anyway. Does it not stand to reason that a higher numerical gear ratio would relieve the load on the motor and (all else equal) lower the operating temperature (a good thing)? It would also allow the motor to either rev higher or spend longer periods at max revs (a bad thing given the loose wires at the comm).

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#45 John C Martin

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:45 PM

A crap shoot either way

#46 MSwiss

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:52 PM

Hopefully the ones for Tracy's race, the handouts will from a good day from the tab masher person or machine.

 

In the meantime, I had a chance to look at all 20 motors I got in last week.

 

On 13, the hoods are incredibly bad/oversize.

 

And on the other 7, they look terrific. Best ever.

 

Maybe Proslot is in the midst of a batch of good ones.

 

I'm getting 10 more in on Wednesday.

 

It will interesting to see what the hoods look like on those.


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#47 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:56 PM

PS thrown a wire at comm tab... motor turns same RPM with whatever gear ratio... Seems C.F. at 14.4 volts is the killer.
 
Of course bogging it with gear ratio too high doesn't help with heat either...

Tied comm on RH prevents this..

And you also got beat by a Retro Hawk Saturday that you said the brushes won't hold up on the Hawk at 14.2 volts!!!
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#48 John C Martin

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:56 PM

How many have no endplay?

#49 MSwiss

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 09:04 PM

How many have no endplay?

Zero

 

I have 23 in stock.

 

That's what clean living will get you. LOL

 

2 do have poor bearing alignment.


Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#50 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 09:29 PM

How many have no endplay?
Tracy the RH world record holder's motor from last week lost all it's feathers wouldn't fly anymore LOL..f inished like last..
I suspect from killing the brushes cause they had plenty of brush left..
You may not have noticed but I busted the bearings out of one of those ARP fronts ..I used to be crazy about LOL. Still finished second with one front wheel ...

The World Record holder also was the 3 race on that motor JC plus all the practice for three races.
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